EP 13: Julia Arpag and Stephanie Quinn-West, Talent Acquisition Team Leads - SecureVision

Julia Arpag and Stephanie Quinn-West, Talent Acquisition Team Leads at SecureVision, join host James Mackey to discuss how to rise into a talent leadership role, imposter syndrome, automation tools for recruiting, what the best/worst companies and hiring managers are doing, and a lot more!

Episode Chapters:

00:32 Who is Julia Arpag?

01:05 Who is Stephanie Quinn-West?

02:17 How do you become a top-performing recruiter and move up into a talent leadership role?

05:20 The challenges with proactively stepping up / Imposter Syndrome

09:45 Pros and cons of using automation tools in the recruitment process

15:00 The upside-down funnel 

17:25 What the best companies and hiring managers are doing to be successful at recruiting

23:15 Hiring candidates that are a 70% fit

26:05 Common mistakes companies and hiring managers make with recruiting

33:55 Placement sources for tech roles

37:05 Placement sources for revenue roles

Thank you to our sponsor, SecureVision, for making this show possible! 

 
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Thanks for listening!

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:46

Welcome to episode 13 of Town Acquisition Trends and Strategy. I'm really excited about today. We are joined by Julia and Stephanie, our team leads at Secure Vision. Welcome.

SPEAKER_02 0:57

Thank you. We're happy to be here.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

Good stuff. So, hey, before we we jump into it, I know we we have some really cool topics to talk about today. Could you both just uh maybe provide like a short introduction, just talking about your background and experience and a little bit about what you do at Secure Vision? And uh Julia, if you want to start first, you can jump into it.

SPEAKER_02 1:17

Awesome. Thanks, James.

Who is Julia Arpag?

SPEAKER_02 1:18

Um, yeah, so I've been here at Secure Vision for about a year. Um, obviously have loved every second. And like James said, um, I got to move from the recruiter seat into the talent lead seat about five months ago. And moving into leadership has been really fun. Um, I really love getting, I still get to recruit, I'm still hands-on, but I also get to lead a couple team members here at Secure Vision and be part of just higher level kind of talent strategy planning of for the whole company. So that's been really fun.

SPEAKER_00 1:46

Yeah, and you're crushing it. You're doing such a good job too.

SPEAKER_01 1:49

Thanks, James. Hey,

Who is Stephanie Quinn-West?

SPEAKER_01 1:51

um, I'm Stephanie. I have done kind of similarly. I started just about a year ago, moved up just about five months ago into the team lead role. Um, prior to that, I started my role in in tech as an SDR and moved into an AE role and then moved into the recruiting side of all of that. So that's been really fun to have that background and speak to folks in Rev roles, and then here at Secure Vision, kind of open that up to all different types of roles. And then, as Julia had said, move into the team lead role, focus a lot more on strategy processes, but also in that kind of player coach. So still getting to talk to candidates.

SPEAKER_00 2:32

Sure. Yeah, and that's uh and in your question as well. And both of you are a huge part of why we've been able to grow and be so successful. So I'm really excited to have this conversation with you today. And if you all enjoy doing this, by the way, we can just do this maybe like once a month where we bring you on the show and you just share with everybody like the things you're working on and what you're learning and what you're seeing out there in the market, and whatever we want to talk about.

SPEAKER_02 2:55

Let's do it. The world needs to know what we see.

SPEAKER_00 2:59

Exactly. I I agree. Uh so yeah, so I think um, you know,

How do you become a top-performing recruiter and move up into a talent leadership role?

SPEAKER_00 3:03

one of the topics that I know um you both are really passionate about and a lot of people are reaching out to you to learn more about is, you know, I we would love to get your thoughts on how to become a top-performing recruiter and how to to to do the things you need to do in order to move up in your career and um ultimately, you know, move into a lead position and move into talent leadership. Um and uh, you know, Stephanie, if you want to start us off on this one, and then we can kind of just uh for each question, we're kind of just alternate who goes first. We can just do it that way.

SPEAKER_01 3:36

Sounds good. Yeah. Um I think in recruitment, there's a lot of moving pieces, obviously. Um and so really making sure that you are focused on each aspect of it and knowing how to prioritize those things can be really important and help you to kind of move up and maintain what you have going on within your processes. Um, I come from a role previously where I was more focused on candidates. And I think that that's really helped to build the foundation of checking in with candidates, making sure that I'm calling them, um, making sure I'm checking in if they have an assignment, right? Like checking in periodically if it's due within a week, checking in on day two, day five, day seven, and really making sure that the candidate has everything that they need, especially in this market right now, because if I'm not checking in on them, somebody else is. And then they're more kind of focused on that role. So maintaining that, like being top of mind for candidates, I think has been really helpful. And then going back to kind of all your tasks is not only focusing on their late stage candidates, but you've got to go back and make sure that you know you're doing all of the things to make sure you get those. So just really blocking time on calendars and making sure that you have that focus all the way throughout and knowing that everything's almost equally as important.

unknown 5:01

Cool.

SPEAKER_02 5:01

Yeah. Yeah, I would agree with everything Steph said. And recruiting is a really unique blend of you have to be hyper-organized, like she said, but you also need to be a people person. Like you have to genuinely care for your candidates and care for your clients and care for your team. And people can feel it. They can feel it if you're just acting the part so that you can get a promotion or close a role or make the client not mad at you. Like they can feel that, they can feel your motivation. So I think cultivating that genuine personal desire to see everyone in your circle succeed, to see your candidate succeed, your clients succeed, your team succeed. Um, and then as far as Seth and I getting to move up into this player coach role, it really came a lot from that, like our human first approach. And then both of us were already leading without the title. Like we already were stepping up in our client relationships, we already were mentoring younger members of our team. So just basically stepping into the role that you want, doing the things that are already your natural bent and that you're already strong in or that you want to stretch in, just taking on those kind of opportunities and projects is gonna go a long way in your career.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

Right. I think um, and I,

The challenges with proactively stepping up / Imposter Syndrome

SPEAKER_00 6:06

you know, you all know how important like psychology is to me and how much I weigh that in the interview process when even when I when we we brought both you on board and and with everybody else as well. Um, I think it's it's it's understanding too, just you know, if you want to move up, being willing to just proactively start to take on additional tasks and wanting to find solutions to problems and wanting to bring potential solutions to leadership and saying, hey, like I know we're doing it this way, but have we considered doing it this way? Right. Or have we considered implementing this change? Or um, you know, and I think just some sometimes, you know, people might they might want to do that, but maybe they feel unsure about is it really my place? Should I speak up? Should I say something? And so I think one of the things to um, you know, it gets easier with the more years of experience you have and and and just having a little bit more life experience too, I think helps too. But uh, you know, it's really important that if if you're not the type of person that feels comfortable to understand that if you don't feel comfortable bringing those things up, it's okay. And in fact, like, you know, if you're not comfortable, it means you're out of your comfort zone and it means you're doing something that's making you grow. And so one of the things that I talk about with people when they're moving up, um, if they feel like imposter syndrome or they feel uncomfortable about having certain conversations, I say, great, good. You know, like that that means that you're growing, right? Like you're you're putting yourself in a position where you're uncomfortable, where it's uncharted territory, you haven't done it before. That's how you know you're exactly where you should be.

SPEAKER_01 7:34

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_00 7:36

Great job.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

But two things there. One, it's great to have a leader like James who encourages that and like will tell us and tells us to then tell our folks that we're leading those same things, you know, because sometimes you don't have somebody that will tell you, I know if you you maybe have imposter syndrome or you're not feeling comfortable, and that's okay, and that's a good thing. You know, so I think us being able to instill that in future folks that want to move into leadership and that trickling down from James, from Bridget really makes a world of a difference here at Secure Vision.

SPEAKER_00 8:08

Yeah, for sure. And I think it's um, you know, I I also think uh one of the analogies I like to share with people too, uh, is I just the weightlifting is just such an easy analogy because it's like if you go, if you go to the gym in the morning, right? And if you if you're lifting a set and you it's not painful at all, it's not uncomfortable, then your your muscle, you're you're not growing, right? So I just I can I try to use that analogy with with people. It's like, you know, when you're when you want to move up and you want to you need to be proactive and you need to be outspoken and you need to to come to the table with ideas and show that you're engaged and that you want to contribute and help uh and optimize the business. Um it's it again, it's it's it's okay to be uncomfortable. Uh, you know, you maybe we get to a point in our careers, I don't know, but we might get to a point where we want to be a little bit more comfortable. But you know, I think at least for most people and coming up in town acquisition when you're pushing to get that promotion, you you also have to be willing to be uncomfortable and be willing to be in a position where it doesn't necessarily mean I'm not talking about like working crazy hours or anything like that. I just mean in terms of the actions you take, the conversations you have, you have to be willing to put yourself out there and do things you haven't done before, which you know it might be feel a little bit tough at first. So I think it's it's honestly, I think that mental barrier that that people quite honestly, you know, have have trouble kind of overcoming. Uh, because, you know, different, you know, managers can be different personalities. Some can be more extroverted, introverted, but I think a common thread is people have to be willing to be out of their comfort zone and step up and try to find other ways to contribute and have maybe some what might feel as like uncomfortable conversations, where they're kind of putting themselves out there and being a little bit vulnerable uh so that they can be, you know, thought of for a team lead or a leadership role.

SPEAKER_02 9:53

I agree. And one thing I'd add to that too is humility. Like I think the fact that both Steph and I, yes, we come with ideas, but we also come with questions. Like we're like, hey, what do we think is a good way to solve this? What do we think is a good solution? Or when I'm struggling with my response rates for LinkedIn messages, I'll go to my team and be like, hey, anyone have any good templates? Like we're not ever coming down and saying, hey, you know, we're in a leadership position, so we're gonna tell everyone how to do everything. We're still asking questions, we're still inquisitive, we're still humble. So I would say that's a huge piece. And like Steph said, you know, we see that from the leadership level here at Secure Vision, which is awesome. We see leadership asking questions, we see leadership wanting to push in and hear from everyone about the best way to do something or the ideas that everyone

Pros and cons of using automation tools in the recruitment process

SPEAKER_02 10:31

brings to the table.

SPEAKER_00 10:33

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, so I I have a follow-up question. And um, Julia, if you could answer this one first, I um, you know, one of the things Stephanie mentioned earlier was uh in regards to you know checking in with candidates consistently and really investing in those relationships and that being a core part of being a top-performing recruiter. Um, I'm I'm curious to get both of your thoughts on automation tools like Calendly and different tools that actually kind of cut down on communication with candidates. Because obviously, like if you think about scheduling interviews, like that's a it's it can be a huge pain, particularly. We've all worked with hiring managers that will reschedule like several times, right? And and so having that calendarly link that you can send out to new candidates and also candidates down funnel, um, it can it can feel like it's removing a big burden. But one thing that I found when I was, you know, an individual contributor is that a lot of the times when I was um you know having those conversations with the candidates to schedule the interview, that's when I was doing what I call like ARPO, right? Like that's when I was kind of evaluating, you know, oh, hey, by the way, can you do Thursday at 12? Okay, great. Um, also, hey, how's it going? Like, where where are you currently interviewing? Where are you in the process? Uh, how are you ranking the opportunities? Do you have any pending offers? Like, you know, I would have those conversations. So, what are you doing this weekend? Like, how's how's your family? You know, I would have all of those conversations and ultimately build a much deeper relationship and also really understand how their mind works and like what they're prioritizing. So I'm just like, how do you strike that balance, right? Because obviously we need to leverage technology because it's, you know, it allows us to move faster and and more uh, you know, hopefully more efficiently. But I feel like as a recruiter, there's it's hard, right? Because how do you find that balance between automation and real genuine relationships? So, how do you how do you leverage tools like Calendly and how do you recommend uh recruiters to leverage tools like that?

SPEAKER_02 12:20

Yeah. So my recommendation is definitely so we want, I run a three-touch outreach process for my initial prospects when I reach out to them about a new job. So my first two touches, I do not include a calendar link. I just say, hey, I'd love to chat with you, let me know when works for you. And then I want to have that back and forth because embedding a link in those initial messages actually way drives down response rate. So when I feel more human, when I'm personalizing my template, I'm not just throwing links at my candidate. It makes it way likelier for them to respond to me. And then if by the third touch they still haven't responded, um, then I actually find the calendar link can actually help because they're like, okay, fine, this is easy. I'll just click on this and maybe talk to her. But that being said, I agree that your first instinct definitely has to be maintaining the personal touch over the automation. Um, obviously, like Steph said, you have a million candidates and prostate at any given time. So you do need to be moving efficiently. But um just that that initial touch. I'm really a big believer in making it as personalized as possible. Like I'll include not only that ask of, hey, when works for you, but I'll also include the name of their current company in my outreach. So they know I'm not just blasting this out to 50 people. So I think personalization is key, not using automation, especially for your couple first touches. And then throughout your process, like you said, James, not just blasting them with hiring manager calendarly links, even if that is how your hiring manager wants them to schedule, you can still ask questions, like you said. You can still check in on their interview process, you can still make it a more personalized conversation the whole time. So that's what I'd recommend.

SPEAKER_00 13:50

I love it.

SPEAKER_01 13:51

Um, you know, it's funny. I was actually just talking about that with Bridget, who to clarify is my manager yesterday about Calendly, and she also doesn't send it out in the first touch. I've always sent it out. I include it in all of my touches. It's just at the bottom because then it's a choice, right? Like I'm writing a personalized message, of course, in my first touch that's the most personalized, but it's also included there that way if the candidate so chooses, they can go ahead and schedule and I can't avoid that back and forth. It's almost like uh an option and it's way at the end. Um, so I do include it, and I feel like those conversations, I don't know if they really come up in scheduling, and maybe it's because of the way I do things. But what I do is when I first get them on the phone screen, that's where I'm starting the real relationship. And I'm talking to them a little bit at the beginning of the call. How was your weekend? And, you know, making notes like, oh, they have a dog, or you know, so I can check back in later on. And then towards the end of that phone screen, I'm also so hey, what's the best way to contact you? You know, like you can go ahead for me, you can text me on this phone number. Um, we can do email, we can also hop on a call at any time. I'm here throughout the process. So I will check in with you between calls. I'm also here to do scheduling. So, you know, if you feel like you're not getting your answers from the calls that you're on, or you'd rather speak with me than the hiring manager and you have a certain question, then we can always do that and just kind of really open that up and get them their buy-in, right? Oh, you know what? Text is great for me, or hey, you know, I really don't check my phone during working hours. So email is the best way to get me. And then I will work on their kind of the way that they work with things and then pop in those kind of bits of how's your dog and all of that within those texts or emails

The upside-down funnel

SPEAKER_01 15:46

or follow-up calls and things like that.

SPEAKER_00 15:49

Gotcha. And and I don't know about you all, but what I remember too, like when I was doing uh when I was doing IC work as a recruiter, like I would I had this idea of like this upside down funnel where it was basically so my can the candidate funnel goes this way, right? And at the bottom is final round interviews offers. But I would have like also this concept of like an upside down funnel where it's like the further down funnel somebody gets, the more time I'm actually spending with them. So it's like that concept of like when I have somebody in what I would call stage four interviews or final round interviews, right? Um from I would I would always kind of think like mentally about that kind of flipped funnel. Like the further down funnel somebody gets, the more time I'm gonna spend with them, you know, scheduling or otherwise, just on the phone talking with them about other opportunities, what they're thinking about, what they're prioritizing, what they want to see in an offer, you know, how they're going about the decision-making process. Is it a family decision? Are they are they making it themselves? Like what, you know, all of those things, like the further down funnel they get, the more I'm I'm I'm investing time speaking with them.

SPEAKER_03 16:52

Agreed.

SPEAKER_01 16:52

I've never really thought about that in such a visual way, but I really like that explanation. But that's something that I tell to folks, um, whether they're on my team or sometimes when you're explaining to a hiring manager as well, right? Where, you know, we're gonna start with like really getting 50 candidates in for week one and making sure that we're fully calibrated. And then once we've got a good pipeline going, then we're probably going to ease up on outreach, you know, and that's because our time is flipped, right? We're more focused. It's not like we're less focused on this role, but rather we're spending more time with the candidates that are in later stages. So you're getting just as much time. And I try to explain that to my team in terms of if they're like looking at, oh, I've got a lot of roles going on and I can't possibly source for all of these all at the same time. But it's like you can, you just have to kind of like flip the way that you think about your time. So I like your inverted funnel.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Um, well, well, very cool. I, you know, I would love to, I mean, we have about 30 minutes left. And I honestly, I feel like we could next time we do this, if if you all want to do this again, we maybe we can even uh reserve a little bit more time um just because I feel like there's so much we can cover. But um I I would love to also get your thoughts like you've worked with a ton of companies to help them hire at Secure Vision prior to Secure Vision.

What the best companies and hiring managers are doing to be successful at recruiting

SPEAKER_00 18:11

Um the companies and the hiring managers that that stand out uh that that do an exceptional job, are there any clear differentiators about how they go about or thinking about recruiting or how they execute that that you that you could clearly say, you know, to to people out there, like this is these are the things you need to do to be successful at recruiting, or these are what the the best hiring managers or best companies are doing that's different than what the majority of the market's doing. Julia, would you want to start with that one?

SPEAKER_02 18:41

I do. Oh my gosh. I have two clients that come to mind in particular that are strong in different ways. So one kind of similar to what you were just talking about, Steph, in terms of you communicating to your clients, hey, as we get candidates down the funnel, we as recruiters are spending more time with them. But I have this one client that they get that too. So not only do I pre-close my candidate after they've had their final interview, my hiring manager wants to pre-close them. So they have multiple touches with that person who's gonna manage them. And so the client gets that personal touch piece. There, they don't view recruitment as transactional, they don't view it as you just need to interview them and then move on. They're like, no, this is a person. They need to see who the team is, who their manager is gonna be, what their life is gonna be like here. So that's definitely a best practice. And then I have another client who I love how quickly they're able to move. So again, it's not transactional. They're meeting, they're having these, you know, very in-depth interview conversations, but they move so fast. They don't waste the candidate's time. They respect that the candidate is making this choice just as much as they are. So from when I do my initial phone screen, they schedule one long panel interview. It's an hour and a half, and then they they move to offer. That's it. They make sure everyone that needs to make the decision is on that panel. They move calendars, they make it happen, they prioritize it. And then I've had many instances where I screen a candidate one day, and then I've actually literally been able to offer by the end of the next day or at the very latest within a week. So that client is amazing at understanding the market and getting that they need to just move quickly and have that hiring velocity.

SPEAKER_00 20:14

And in order to move that fast too, they have to have a very clear understanding of what success looks like and what the ideal profile looks like. And that I think just speaks to just a deep level understanding of the role requirements and the type of individual that's going to be successful at your company.

SPEAKER_02 20:29

Yeah, they're very dialed in. And that client specifically, so they hire a lot of engineers. So that's almost an easier process because they have a lot of very technical questions where there truly are essentially yes or no answers, but they're also vetting for personality. Like they know the type of person who's successful there, which is why they do a panel and they have multiple people kind of experiencing them. Um, but yeah, they do a really good job of understanding the profile and then moving quickly on the right people.

SPEAKER_00 20:54

Cool. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

Love it. Um of the things that I thought of is folks that are really strong criteria. So, like you were saying, really know what they want and need for this role to be successful, both in soft skills and anything else that like is particular to their role, but are also open, right? So if they have these strong criteria, you can hit the ground running as a recruiter if they give you like a certain list and they're like, this is what we need. But at the same time, if they find somebody that checks, you know, 80% of the boxes and maybe doesn't have that three to five years of experience, but rather has two, but they look great, then they're like, okay. Or maybe they they don't have one particular um item on their tech stack. And they're not gonna just go ahead and ding a candidate because of that. I think those are super strong hiring managers and great folks for us to work with, right? Strong criteria, but also can tend to be open.

SPEAKER_00 21:51

Right. I think um a lot of people too, they I mean this is common across any discipline, right? But people kind of simplify things that aren't in their own swim lane, right? And and also I think just there's a lot of hiring managers out there that really don't have a good understanding of how what makes somebody successful uh on their team. And and uh, you know, it's obviously we have to be as recruiters pretty tactful about um well, we don't ever really express that, but we we try to dig to try to uncover like, okay, what are the top performers doing? What kind of background experience do they have? How are they wired? What are you know, how what's their day-to-day look like? Right. I mean, we try to to get a pulse on that because usually when we see candidate uh excuse me, companies uh pass on candidates for like missing this one minor thing, it's like, okay, do you does the my first question in my head is does this hiring manager really know what is going to drive the best outcomes for their team? And uh most of times what I find is the hiring managers that will will pass on something very small, they're not necessarily the best like strategic thinkers when it comes to thinking about business outcomes and business strategy. Like, and and that's where it's like you have to like as a hiring manager, you have to be willing to like step back and you know make sure you're not falling in the trap of oversimplifying something because you you might feel like, oh, I've been hiring people for 10 years. You know, I know everything I need to know. And it's it's just been my life experience as soon as people get to that place where it's it's it's they end up kind of dropping the ball sometimes, right? So um yeah I think the dust companies they're they're focused on the business outcomes that the team needs to deliver. And and then that's how they're kind of identifying you know what what are the core fundamental skill sets and and and you know that that that they need the person to have and they're usually very flexible on you know some of the nice to have. Like they they have clearly defined like the top three must-haves right and then they have a bunch of other things where they're nice to have and you'll have some people that have you know one portion of the nice to have and hopefully you hire somebody in the future has a different you know it's different uh attributes that are the nice to have group right so you overall can have a pretty well rounded team as long as they fundamentally share maybe the three you know three common skill sets or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 24:00

Yeah agreed and I

Hiring candidates that are a 70% fit

SPEAKER_02 24:01

know that you've posted about this on LinkedIn before James but also hiring someone who can do at least 70% of the job gives them like gives them room gives them room to grow makes it likely that they'll stay I think it's so important to not hire someone who can already do 100% who will get bored in six months.

SPEAKER_00 24:17

Yeah I mean like think about it like would either of you go into a role that you've done 100% of I mean unless like somebody was like okay I'll pay you a million dollars like then of course like you would you would do it but like otherwise like you're gonna be like no like why would I I've I've already done that I'm looking for the next thing so it's you know and it's not just about money like of course like that's important but like you want the money plus the growth because if you have if you get like a little bit of an increase without the growth then ultimately that's going to stagnate in the future where you can't you can't get more so it's like I mean I think that's how a lot of A players think right like for instance I wouldn't want to take if I wasn't growing if I wasn't learning uh you know if I I just wouldn't be interested at this point in my career.

SPEAKER_01 24:59

Um is that is that how you both feel or do you I mean what are your thoughts on on on that I mean yeah I think it's really important and love that you posted that and immediately liked it that it is for folks to be able to grow and like Julia said then they're going to stay you know it you could get like you said an increase in pay but then you're not increasing your responsibilities what is that going to mean six months from now a year from now like how are you going to grow and whichever way you're thinking about it if money is more important or a challenge is more important you're going to get stagnant in one or the other if one of them kind of just stops.

SPEAKER_00 25:41

Yeah I mean all of the most successful people that I know are in positions that to like at least 20, 30% they haven't done.

SPEAKER_02 25:50

Yeah. And I think a lot of that though James does also come down to you as a as an individual like seeking out opportunities like that. So I would say even if your job doesn't have baked in challenges that you haven't done before, I think you you then need to go out and find them if if that's your if that's your goal, if you want to keep growing if you want to keep challenging yourself. So I think it's both like I know I personally took this job at Supervision because I saw oh awesome like just baked into the job itself are things I haven't done before. But then when I got here obviously I also kind of checked out the landscape and I was like oh let me also choose some things and take initiative on some things that I could use to expand my experience as well.

SPEAKER_00 26:27

Right. And that that's really cool that you mentioned that because that's kind of a full circle thing from our like the first topic we were talking about how to move up in your career right. Exactly all connected like looking for things that you haven't done before um and taking the initiative to to make an impact right yeah exactly. Yeah that's it's all super helpful. This is all really good stuff. So I know this is a ton of value for for recruiters uh tuning in.

Common mistakes companies and hiring managers make with recruiting

SPEAKER_00 26:51

So um I I wanted to uh also ask you just like what are the most common holes that you see hiring managers, uh customers fall into and I think we touched on some of this in terms of like oversimplification, but are you know from a process standpoint or or whatever else like do you see consistent things across the board that that when companies are struggling to hire it's like okay it's usually one of these three things or is there anything at a high level like that that you could speak to um I think one of the things that stands out to me is when you have a team of hiring managers not really choosing one person that can be the decision maker.

SPEAKER_01 27:29

And it's totally fine to have a team of hiring managers and have other folks that you know have ideas. That's great because when we do our check-ins on usually a weekly basis to have more people on the call usually helps because you're getting the input of everyone and you're talking things through right that's the goal of the meeting. But if you are then trying to follow up and looking to get the candidate to the next stage and everybody's kind of passing the buck on who's making that decision on whether they move forward or not, that can be a real hurdle. And so you know having a group of hiring managers as long as you have that one decision maker, I think can be super beneficial. But if you've got too many people in there you're you don't have that like team captain, then that can be detrimental and kind of slow things down. And I've seen candidates be lost to other companies are just moving faster.

SPEAKER_02 28:21

Yeah I would say the biggest pro yeah the biggest thing that's going to prevent you from making a higher is speed. That's been my experience is not being able to move a candidate quickly for the interview process. Um and yeah I mean obviously there is it's it's it's a huge decision for both for the candidate and for the company. So I'm not saying you should rush it, but I think being efficient, having a plan, knowing who needs to speak with them, knowing the feedback you need to get to this point, having a point person who makes the ultimate decision that's just going to allow you to move quickly and be confident in your decision either way. So yeah I would say time in process is the biggest reason that a company would not be able to make a hire.

SPEAKER_00 29:01

You know one thing that just never made sense to me and I I just I just don't I really have a hard time understanding is when you're working with a hiring manager that refuses to accept that their salary isn't in line with the skill set that they're looking for. I just I don't because it's such a simple thing right it's not it's it's not very hard to understand that right like okay we've interviewed 10 people right you're offering a hundred the candidates are on average looking for 130 like you're not paying enough in order to to fill this role unless it but it's it's interesting though that that's still something where it happens I think every recruiter's dealt with that like a fair a fair amount I mean not the majority of the time but you know I mean it's something that's come up like several times over the years for me. And I could just I can never understand why it's so hard for for companies or hiring managers to accept.

SPEAKER_02 29:58

Well I think what's hard right now is that the numbers are jumping up faster than like the stats support. So like if you pull if you pull the numbers on like salary.com or pay scal.com or something it looks like you said like that role this fake role should be at 100K but the market has inflated so fast that the stats aren't showing that. So to your point anecdotally you can say I've had TED candidates all are asking for 130 to 150 but the hiring manager can say well no that look at what the look at what the numbers say and you're like I hear you I understand that this is what the people say. So it's that balance too of understanding where they're coming from like they're looking at their bottom line like they can't just be throwing money at people but to your point sometimes they need to depending on the market conditions and the changes.

SPEAKER_00 30:43

Yeah the other thing that always annoyed me too is like when uh like leaders in startups and growth stage would use like a like a what is it pay scale or what the com or whatever and it's that was like an aggregate of the entire US market that's not in tech. But then they're looking at that and saying oh this is what tech salaries are it's like no no tech tech is yeah tech industry and then also yeah San Francisco New York like the core markets I guess that's changing a little bit but I mean it's it's like you can't use a data tool that's pulling data from industries outside of tech if you're in tech. You need salary data from tech.

SPEAKER_01 31:20

Yeah they also it comes to a point also where the hiring team has been in the company for a really long time and so they think one they're looking at their like internal salaries right and you're not matching your current team salaries to what's going on in the market right now. And they're like well you know we hired so and so three years ago and we're only paying him X. And you're like Yep. And now here we are three years later the market is very very different. And they're trying to look at you know being comparable within their team which usually are trying to match that outside person, that new candidate with the previous market obviously salaries. Whereas I think if you're thinking forward then you really think maybe I need to raise the salaries for the folks that I have on my team to retain them and to bump that up so that the folks that I'm bringing in are you know more aligned with what we have internally and what's what's going on in the market. And that can be a really hard pill to swallow for a CEO that's been in the same company for 10 years or for somebody that's like this isn't their focus, right? Their recruiting is not their job. That's why we're here but they you know really need to kind of think about it and we have to be the influencers and the people that come with that data not just from PayScale, but from real folks that we're talking to every day and you know kind of bringing that all together to make it an easier field to swallow.

SPEAKER_00 32:59

Right. Yeah I remember I I I purchased it was one of those paysomething.com to pull salaries and it was a like an aggregate you know salary thing because we were going to use that to put together salary guides within tech and we we paid for the service and then all of the data like was just terrible like it just was not applicable at all and I was like oh my God we just wasted like I mean it was only a couple thousand bucks I uh but yeah it was still I mean obviously it's still like two thousand bucks for like why do we spend this was this is not this is not helping.

SPEAKER_02 33:28

Have you been able to find a tool that does specifically focus in tech salaries or no?

SPEAKER_00 33:33

Yeah so I think um and we don't actually we don't pay for it right now but LinkedIn talent insights probably would be recruiters best bets in tech because you can segment by market industry uh position and then pull like the average salaries and average tenures and a fair amount of data and it's it's actually I think it's it's it's um the pricing is somewhat reasonable. I mean it's expensive and it might be different for in-house recruiters than agency recruiters. Um they like a lot of LinkedIn's pricing is different for agencies than it is for in-house like is it more expensive for agency or more expensive for in-house? Like LinkedIn recruiter licenses are more expensive for in-house huh because agencies usually buy more of them so they bring down discount for interesting so the like in-house I think LinkedIn recruiter licenses are around like 10 000 bucks a year and um for agency side I think at the lowest tier the uh it starts around like five grand owes yeah so uh but anyways I you know we have a few minutes left here and some really practical insight that could help people I think is um like we can break uh break apart like tech recruiting so engineering product design from revenue rules like sales uh marketing customer success account management um I would I would just for growth startups and growth stage um let's just say for tech recruiting could you just give us an overview on you know where are the majority of your hires coming from is it you know are you seeing hires coming across from certain job boards or certain channel other channels or are you seeing most of it from outbound sourcing or referrals or what is the what is the biggest uh placement source uh for startups and growth stage that are hiring technical talent whether it be engineering product design and Julie if you want to start with this one yeah always outbound sourcing 100% of the time for everything ever so I do um I definitely find that and I find that across like both tech and rev rules but um I think specifically with engineering that's where the personalized approach is so important because almost every single engineer I talk to tells me I'm like the 10th message they got that day.

SPEAKER_02 35:43

So you just have to differentiate yourself from the literal first introduction that you have with your candidates. But yeah, that's going to be key. And I think they also like to know um if your if your client is willing to share they like to know comp up front that's obviously important.

SPEAKER_03 35:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:58

And they like to know anything you can share about the the tech stack obviously without again I'm a big believer in not giving too much information in that first text. So I don't include a link to the job description I don't include my calendar like I said but I do just pick a couple pieces of the tech stack so they can just that do I even want this job? Will this even fit with what I'm looking for?

SPEAKER_00 36:17

So I think that kind of information is important within so the vast majority of hires that you're kicking across for for technical engineering product design is is all coming from from outbound sourcing on LinkedIn? 100% 100% okay and do you have any clients or have you over the past couple of years had any clients that were effectively deleveraging off linked LinkedIn outbound sourcing and leveraging other tools that were helping in a in a meaningful way or

Placement sources for tech roles

SPEAKER_00 36:41

have you pretty much seen like really pretty much any other solution or tool kind of fail in in comparison for tech recruiting?

SPEAKER_02 36:47

No honestly DICE is used really well by one of my clients so they use that for out on it's it's the same process it's still outbound sourcing but they use that as another way to get good engineering candidates in their pipeline.

SPEAKER_00 36:59

What's um what the what percentage of hires comes from the dice sourcing versus LinkedIn sourcing for them. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 37:10

That's like just borderline just enough for it to like matter right just enough for it to matter right to pay for one seat on DICE just to like keep it alive but obviously the focus is mostly on LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_00 37:19

So what does in terms of time allocation does that is it is it aligned where like 10% of your time is on DICE and 90% is on LinkedIn or so for this client they only have their internal recruiter source on Dice.

SPEAKER_02 37:31

Like we don't even have DICE as as Secure Vision. So she I'm not sure how she allocates her time but she said the same thing where she finds a lot more success on LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_00 37:39

And just so the audience knows this is around like a hundred percent growth stage uh customer right yeah yeah their head counts 120 right now okay cool yeah just to so people have context too yeah um um okay and

Placement sources for revenue roles

SPEAKER_00 37:51

then on on the uh revenue side uh Stephanie if you can answer this one um where are you is it primarily outbound LinkedIn sourcing do you see any other tools making a significant impact right now where are most of the placements hires coming from right now for revenue roles yeah for rev roles I think still I think just the market that we're in it's a lot of the outbound sourcing on LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_01 38:13

I do however have one client that gets a lot of inbound folks and I think it's just I know and I was surprised to find that out as well um not for like BDR roles but for like sales directors or like AE roles but I think they're in an exciting industry. And also it's they they're a fantastic company. Like they really just I think they have tons of great glassdoor reviews which you can always take with a grain of salt but usually if they're good then you're probably looking at like you can trust those versus like it being one angry employee that ruins the things, you know? But yeah, so in terms of revenue rules again usually outbounding but this one client they've got a lot of inbounds.

SPEAKER_00 39:02

So for that one customer that has the inbounds um could you tell us a little bit I mean obviously from the candidate perspective you know what is a lot of those inbounds referrals or is it really just that there's a ton of content generated not only through Glassdoor but on the company's website. The branding looks really clean and and and nice I mean what like what do you think is the differentiator there that allows them to get more inbounds than other companies that you work with yeah you said industry piece though I know you already said that piece though.

SPEAKER_01 39:32

Yeah no but you're right it's true like they're you know it's because they're in the like social influencer space and so with that their branding is amazing right and they're also exciting right now just given that it's going to be a 16.4 billion dollar industry by the end of 2022. So it's really booming at this time it's relevant you know so I think that's a lot of that but also they did do a fantastic job with branding they have a ton of info about what it's like to work there on their page like I think those kinds of things are super important. So it really spells it out people aren't wondering they're not just seeing a website that's built for clients or prospective clients. It's actually built for prospective candidates as well and I think that that really helps.

SPEAKER_00 40:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 40:24

And are they are they getting a lot of referrals as well or is it primarily just people that are independently finding them online some referrals I would say again that's really maybe 10-15% of what's coming through but overall it's really folks finding them and just applying and their job posts end up on LinkedIn and that you can see like where they come from in greenhouse for example and they're coming from like folks applying through that job post that's on LinkedIn. But I think some of the things that get them excited to apply are on the website or in their job description and the job post that's there.

SPEAKER_00 41:04

And are the are the job posts that this customer is using are they sponsored or are they basically just posting them online and then LinkedIn is scraping them and putting them on the page?

SPEAKER_01 41:13

Yep the latter.

SPEAKER_00 41:14

So they're not they're not even paying and still like that's generating inbounds.

unknown 41:19

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 41:19

That's great. And what ATS are they using?

SPEAKER_01 41:21

Greenhouse.

SPEAKER_00 41:22

Greenhouse yeah because I think yeah okay so so LinkedIn as far as I know unless it's like the limited postings like that LinkedIn will scrape uh from certain job boards from Google and basically push it to the company profile. It's not always consistent or sometimes it'll be missing some or something like that. But I think overall it's it's usually a pretty good uh I I don't think a lot of people realize that uh if they post the position on on on greenhouse like a lot of times LinkedIn will just scoop it up and put it on their page. Yeah um really cool hey so I think we're we're coming up on on time here uh but this is this has been a ton of fun I think we we covered a lot of good topics is there anything that either of you would like to discuss real quick or bring up before we we jump off guys I feel like we talked about everything there was fun to get I think we've done it like we can I think we solved it I think we solved all the problems. Good job team nothing further yeah this is super helpful um I just think that I mean all of this and what we're gonna do too with the episode is we we'll time stamp it so people can like let's say people are like okay what are what are top recruiters doing in tech to for specifically for tech recruiting right and they can go specifically to the later part of the episode. So yeah we covered we covered a a lot of important stuff so um yeah this was a ton of fun I would you do you did you guys have fun? Did you enjoy this? Yeah I love this yeah I would do this anytime okay cool so like maybe we just put on a recurring uh episode where maybe like once a month we jump on and we just do this.

SPEAKER_02 42:50

Let's do it cool okay I'm here for it yeah did you have fun James?

SPEAKER_00 42:54

Oh yeah I had a great time this was this was good I I like uh it's it's nice this was you know we have a lot of really cool guests on on on the show and and we've had um you know several uh uh CPOs and and and really really senior level executives which is a lot of fun but we the a lot of the conversations that we we have are are more are focused on like transitioning to a remote culture and like all these types of things that are just very big picture and so what's really fun about this conversation too it's it's it's like this is boots on the ground moving up into you know talent leadership how to get great outcomes for your clients specific you know tactical things that people can implement um is is really helpful. So yeah this was a ton of fun. Awesome awesome cool well very cool and for everybody tuning in thanks for joining us and we'll see you next time.