The Breakthrough Hiring Show: Recruiting and Talent Acquisition Conversations
Welcome to The Breakthrough Hiring Show! We are on a mission to help leaders make hiring a competitive advantage.
Join our host, James Mackey, and guests as they discuss various topics, with episodes ranging from high-level thought leadership to the tactical implementation of process and technology.
You will learn how to:
- Shift your team’s culture to a talent-first organization.
- Develop a step-by-step guide to hiring and empowering top talent.
- Leverage data, process, and technology to achieve hiring success.
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The Breakthrough Hiring Show: Recruiting and Talent Acquisition Conversations
EP 116: Mastering the art of running a category leading people organization with Debbie Shotwell CPO at Stack Overflow
Come and join us for a fascinating conversation between our host, James Mackey, and his guest, Debbie Shotwell, the Chief People and Culture Officer at Stack Overflow.
They will provide you with invaluable insights on how to run a people organization effectively. Discover how to establish a workplace culture driven by values, boost employee engagement, and evaluate success based on these principles. In addition, they will be sharing useful tips on employee well-being, fostering open dialogue, career growth, and how to make the most of technology.
0:43 Debbie Shotwell's background
3:54 Developing a strong company culture
14:23 Stack Overflow's career programs and development
21:04 Tech & storytelling in Talent Acquisition
30:52 Stack Overflow AI integration with systems
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Our host James Mackey
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Thanks for listening!
Hello, welcome to the Breakthrough Hiring Show. I'm your host, James Mackey. Today, we are joined by Debbie Shotwell. Debbie, thanks for joining me.
Speaker 2:Thank you, James. It's great to be here today.
Speaker 1:It's great to have you Very excited. We have a lot of great topics to discuss and I know everybody tuning in is going to get a ton of value from our conversation. So, before we jump into it, it'd be great if we could learn a little bit about you. Could you share your background with us?
Speaker 2:For sure I have been a lifetime human resources, personnel, people, person. Very few people can say that they went to school and they decided this is the career path they wanted to go on. I feel very grateful that I've been able to maintain and excel throughout my career and I'm super happy with the companies that I've worked for. I started out with a little tiny chip company called Intel Corporation, so that was very first job out of college and I wanted to work for a Fortune 500 company and I had my dream made. And throughout my career I worked for some health care companies Sutter Health.
Speaker 2:I've worked for technology companies a real estate investment trust. I worked for Avalon Bay. I was the head of HR and then I went to work for PeopleSoft, which was a wonderful journey right before Oracle purchased them. And I've worked for Tileo, another purchase company by Oracle. And then I went to work for Good Technology Good Technology, great company, a security company, lived through their journey and they were purchased by Blackberry. So I'm an M&A queen, if you can imagine. I actually enjoy working on an M&A.
Speaker 2:Then I went to work for Big Commerce, was there for a very short time and then was offered an amazing leadership role at Sabah Software, a learning management software company, a talent management company.
Speaker 2:We bought three companies while I was there and we integrated and we grew to over 1,000 employees and then we were sold to Cornerstone On Demand. It was a journey and in the middle of the pandemic, so I was on a new journey and that's how I ended up at Stack Overflow. Stack Overflow if you don't know about the company, it started as a real community to help educate and help developers with their own personal coding, answering questions for them, and it serves over 100 million users today on going basis. It's an amazing platform and we also now have a Teams product and that Teams product is sold to big and small companies. We have a very big branding business that we partnership with Indeed, and then we also have an ads business as well. So we have three pillars plus our community, and our goal is to really help our users continue to learn and develop and become better at their jobs, and we now just introduced our new AI product. We'll talk about it a little bit later.
Speaker 1:Nice, very cool, and so, for today, the first topic that we wanted to dive into is really, when it comes to people and culture, why we're seeing more organizations shift to actually calling it a people organization versus HR, and I want to talk to you a little bit about when you think about developing culture at a category leading company such as Stack Overflow. I would love to get your thoughts on what you prioritize in terms of developing a great culture to attract top talent and to empower your employees to make the most of the experience and to guide them toward growth and helping the company achieve North Star metrics. Let's start high level philosophy. How do you think about running people organizations in 2023?
Speaker 2:You have to be really careful and you have to really plan and communicate and have great leadership and management that works for the company. So really ensuring that you listen to your employees, engage them in the process, ensuring that the values you have in the company are true and that you're able to measure success through your values, and making sure that you ask your people is really important. So we use something called the open forum system at Stack Overflow to help us with our culture and continues to help us make changes and modify what's going on in the organization. So we ask things like what's working really well Very basic here what isn't working really well and what can we do to make your life at Stack Overflow better. Employees' well-being is extremely important to our culture here, and workforce flexibility and Learn, share, grow is one of our core values. We want to make sure that every employee has an opportunity to grow within their careers and that's part of our culture.
Speaker 2:The other thing that's part of our culture that's super important and people really value is our employees receive 100% health care. That means they don't pay anything out of pocket, and I'll give Joel, our founder, the credit for that. It was really important to him that employees not worry about their health care expense or their employee benefits package. Ours is probably one of the best in the entire world. I can't say enough about our benefits program. If you read anything on Glassdoor, we have excellent benefits. There's no question by far, and I feel very lucky that we have those benefits. Our overall benefits package is pretty rich as well, along with personal development plans and things that make people feel connected to the culture.
Speaker 2:The other thing about culture that we've found to be a tradition here is that we have a meetup. The annual meetup is once a year. Everybody gets an opportunity to travel to one location and spend time together, and so that's a pretty amazing experience and it's a week, so there's learning opportunities, it's school setting, there's events, there's fun time, there's downtime and silly time, as I like to say.
Speaker 1:Nice. So a big part of it is helping folks throughout their career journey. I think that's a big part of it, right. Like you know, benefits is from a traditional perspective. Thinking about health care is one thing and sub-companies do a really good job on that, others a little bit more mediocre. But I think one way that a company could truly stand out is helping folks when it comes to progressing in their career, and I think that it's everything from onboarding ladders, career development.
Speaker 1:I think those items are, in a way, sometimes even tougher to optimize, simply because they require a lot more, even a lot more thought. I think you know benefits when it comes to traditional benefits in terms of health care, whatnot. It comes out to the values of the company that it comes down to looking at like margins and a P&L and these types of things. The complexity of optimizing onboarding ladders, career development those types of things require a lot more partnership with leaders, VPs, function leads throughout the company. It could be, of course, like you have a holistic approach, but then it's a little bit. It could be segmented a bit based on departments. You know, I would love to get into when you think about we could just start with onboarding and then we can kind of go throughout the employee lifecycle into other areas that we can optimize the career and employee journey.
Speaker 1:What are some of the things that when you enter an organization, whether it's at Stack, overflow or any of the other great companies you work for? What do you look for in onboarding? What are you evaluating? What areas of improvement are you looking for? What are you seeing?
Speaker 2:I don't know if you have ever done this before but, james, when I've worked for some startup companies, they've given me a computer and they said, okay, figure it out. And I'm like what, what do you mean? Figure it out. And then when you work for some world-class companies, they have an onboarding experience and that experience really engages you in work, and so it was super important that we made sure, as a remote first company, is that our onboarding experience is pretty stellar, because we have a video with each one of our leaders and we have an opportunity for each one of our employees to meet with all the departments so they can talk about the department and what they do and what their metrics are and what their KPIs are and how they're accountable to the organization. And our CEO meets with every single new hire as part of the group. So on a monthly basis he gets all the new hires together, he meets them, he knows them, he asks them silly questions, crazy questions, but he gets to know them as human beings, which I think is extremely important and rare when you're the size of Stack Overflow, and I do the same thing once a month At the end of the month I think I'm doing it. Tomorrow, actually, I'm meeting with Stackers and what I'm trying to do is find out what we did well in the hiring process, what we could have improved on and any ideas they have and they'd like to see changes. So, as we're going through our process improvements of any of our processes or policies or procedures we take that feedback, that important feedback they provide, and we make changes to our program.
Speaker 2:One of the things we were struggling with in 2021 is getting computers to people on time being on their day of hire, and so we went from 85% getting them on time to now we're at 100% Everyone gets their computer on time, because we really make an effort to make sure that happens, because it's disruptive when people can't go to work when you hire them. They want to work. They don't want to use their personal computers, they want to use a computer that they're going to be able to work with. That's just one idea, but one of the things that we really, I think, have seen with our employees through our values, because it's really important that our values we live and breathe them Transparency. Transparency is one of our values. Another one is providing manager meetings once a month, so all the managers get an update after the month is over. And then we have an employee meeting once a month and it's ask me anything, ask any employee, any executive, anybody. We do it. It's highlighted, it's hosted and it really does make an improvement because this is an ongoing basis.
Speaker 2:Our CEO writes a letter to every stacker, to all of us, every Friday. So every Friday when you wake up you get into your inbox. The CEO letter is there and it's super important. There's recognition in that letter for the number of people that are using Stack Overflow the highest numbers. Also, what's happened during the week? Product development this is a new benefit we offer. This is our manager training programs and how many people have attended.
Speaker 2:And there's lots of recognition in those letters, so there's a couple other things.
Speaker 1:It sounds like the main thing that you're focusing on here is communication with the team, feedback loops with the team.
Speaker 1:When you're looking for process optimization, everything to get better, it's almost our employees are going to have the answers, so let's start with them first, and one thing that I've been thinking about a lot lately is that great experiences lead to great results, and so there's really not a difference between focusing on experience and optimizing for results. In my opinion, it's a go hand in hand, and I think sometimes we really need to see culture as something that is really driving the North Star metrics of the business. When you listen to feedback on the hiring process, they're going to tell you things that would have provided a better experience for them, but it's also ensuring that your quality of hire is going to be optimized, because you're keeping more great folks in your pipeline and getting them interested in the company. It's what we're talking about onboarding. When you improve onboarding experience, you're making employees productive faster, so they're able to contribute, which they want to. So I don't think we should be segmenting the ideas of experiences versus performance, or experience or culture versus North Star metrics. It's really all bundled together.
Speaker 2:They can't be separated your spot on there, james. It's all combined together. One of the things about your onboarding experience if a new employee has a great experience, what we find is they're great referrals and they will refer others to come to work for your organization. So when I started two and a half years ago, we really didn't have a very good referral program. We put together a referral program and I would say right now we're about 15 to 20% of our hires is based on referrals, which is an amazing number.
Speaker 1:That is really strong. And do you see a correlation when it comes to referrals and performance, for instance? I feel like typically it's gonna improve performance, or maybe you could say finding folks that are the right fit right. What has been your experience with? Okay, increase referrals. Have you seen any corresponding increases in terms of performance or retention or anything else?
Speaker 2:So two and a half years ago our turnover was over 30% and now our turnover is under 18%. So we've significantly seen our retention numbers go up and we're keeping our high performers. So our employees that are performing and doing really well, they're staying in the seat and I would give that credit to our referrals, because we're hiring great people and they're referring others to the org.
Speaker 1:Right. So it's referral program, it's focusing on experience, consistent feedback loops and I think, too, it's the culture, starting at the executive level is making sure that the bandwidth exists to focus on communication. What you're saying about your CEO writing a letter for every Friday morning is that is a huge commitment to communicating with your employees. That's a lot of work when you're running around leading a category, leading company, to spend that time to communicate at that level or that level of consistency, that's a huge commitment.
Speaker 2:It is a huge commitment. I've even said to him okay, you're on vacation this week, let's leave your letter aside. Nope, I'm gonna do my letter. So he's super committed, works extremely hard. He is very collaborative, along with the other senior leadership teams, so I work with a really good team and I feel really lucky to work with them. And it's a great company. Stack Overflow is a great company. It's a great place to work, so we're all lucky that we have an opportunity to work there.
Speaker 1:For sure, and so I would love to talk a little bit more about career ladders and development and upward mobility. We can start wherever you want there, but when you think about ladders, could you give us your philosophy and approach at Stack Overflow?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So one of the things that we do every year is we do an employee engagement survey. Like many other companies, our first year out, we wanted to make sure that we listened again to our employees super important and we took action. And so one of the things that was hit pretty hard on the survey is people felt like they didn't have a career path or they didn't know how they could be promoted into a new job. They weren't having those career path discussions.
Speaker 2:So we invested in our systems and our technology and we implemented a online system called my Academy, and my Academy has a whole host of opportunities for our staffers to go into the system, built a profile and say I'm currently in this job and this is my skills, these are the skills I think I need and this is where I want to go. And along with that is a career path so they can see it where they are today and they can see online what types of avenues they have based on their skill set. The my Academy system this is where AI comes into play based on that skill profile, will send courses to our individuals that is personalized to them to help them. We also, in conjunction with that, built based on career paths, a career navigator. So the navigator is the real picture for people to see. If I'm currently in this technical systems role and I eventually want to be a manager, these are the things you need to go with a manager path. But if you wanted to progress in your technical role, these are the things that you would need to do in training and development.
Speaker 2:Along with that, each employee has the development plan that they can go online and have that conversation with their manager. That's done through Culture AMP, where we set goals and we do performance management. We also use Culture AMP for our employee engagement survey as well. So these are just a tools and the nice thing about it is we've seen our promotion rate go from about 6% on a yearly basis to over 15%. So last year we promoted about 15% of our employee population. So huge kudos to implementing this system and our employee engagement scores went up four points last year and our L&D scores learning and development scores went up seven points last year. So we're seeing the outcome by all the work that we put in and the dedication. We also have a Manager 101 training program and we have a employee stacker essentials program, so every employee has an opportunity to learn in many different ways.
Speaker 1:What I really love about this is it seems like you're tracking a lot of at least several metrics to success. I would love to just taking a step back. Can we just for CPOs tuning in and all sorts of executives I would love to get a breakdown of almost your day to day or month by month or whatever. It's just some kind of buckets of where you're spending your time and roughly a percentage. So is it, would you say, 30, 40% of your time is focused on improving learning, development and thus, like retention or whatnot, or engagement, or you know experts, in your time is focusing on more, so hiring and onboarding or benefits. How would you kind of break down your role from almost a time investment perspective?
Speaker 1:my personal time than you're saying yeah, I just you know from your point of impact, based on everything you're doing, because you're focusing on a few different areas, and I would just be curious to how you segment that time.
Speaker 2:So I'm very lucky. I have a great team, so I give my team all the credit. I don't have to spend as much time in the L&D space because I have a very experienced L&D leader. Our total rewards and operations function. You know I get involved in the decision-making. I'm doing a lot of coaching, individual coaching with leaders. That's where I spend a lot of my time, probably 20% of my time. But I would say, if you had to say a percentage of time, coaching manager leadership in the organization is 20%. L&d is probably 10 to 15%. Total rewards, executive compensation that area I'm probably spending 20%. And then I spend.
Speaker 2:I own facilities. I own, you know, workforce dynamics, onboarding, offboarding and all of that. Until July 31st I owned all the facilities and now we closed our offices. So that was a big chunk of time that now has gone away and it's come back to me. So that's fun but still dynamics. This meetup meeting I talked about, it's a year planning and process I'm responsible, along with my team, on that. So it's a big responsibility. But communications I work really closely with marketing for all these programs to make sure that we communicate really clearly and succinct and that we don't make any missteps. Organizational planning and design. That's where I have a lot of expertise and I really help our leaders and our managers design the work structure, moving for where do you wanna be in two years, where do you wanna be in six months and what does your talent pipeline need to look like? So I get involved in TA, probably not doing direct recruiting, only executive recruiting but I enjoy that as well, so hopefully that helps.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, that's really helpful and I would love to because you're doing all. What I would love to learn a little bit more about is you're doing all these great things on the people side when it comes to your employee base. Could you share a little bit more about how your town acquisition team shares that information with candidates? How much of it is establishing the careers pages with self-guided resource or videos, or is it do you have like candidate packets or information that you send, or how much is the information shared verbally during different calls within the process? Could you walk us through? You've invested all this in building such a great culture. How do you use that promote that culture to make sure you have consistently great people interviewing with your company?
Speaker 2:Great question, james. So we are a talent acquisition team that does a lot of advertising about the company on LinkedIn and other avenues. We've won a lot of awards for our great company, great place to work and we advertise that. But it starts from the minute that someone reaches out to us. So we use paradox. We have a bot. A conversation can go on with the bot so a candidate could ask questions about the culture, can ask questions about the benefits, can ask questions about the revenue. The things that typically would happen in the first half hour with a recruiter can happen with paradox and we have a bot and that is really cool that people find that to be really engaging, particularly technical people, and we do hire a few technical people. So we use that. It's super, super helpful. We also have a schedule of awards that we apply for. We. When I do my monthly meetings with our employees, I say if you have had a good experience and you wanna share, so there's no forcing here share your experience on Glassdoor. That helps us with recruiting talent acquisition, which it does. We also do that with comparably as well.
Speaker 2:We also are really wanting our employees to tell their stories about their career journeys, so we're doing podcasts with the culture being highlighted. In fact, I think it was recorded. Today we're doing a podcast on Stackoverflowcom and it'll be on LinkedIn and it'll be our ERGs talking about their journey and the things that we do in regards to our Alley Ship Group, which has over 150 members. It's super cool. So we have a really robust ERG group as well, so we try to get our employees out there.
Speaker 2:One of our core values is to try to get our employees to do their best work and to really showcase them. So, as a leader, it's my job and number one job is to make sure that every stacker has an opportunity to learn and grow and also have an opportunity to represent themselves and to talk about what they're doing in the organization. For example, yesterday we had an ops review and three of our directors actually came to our board meeting and talked about our product, ai, talked about our community and talked about our marketing. So it's super cool that our employees are getting an opportunity to represent themselves at a higher level.
Speaker 1:I love it. And if we could just go back to the bot on the careers page, I think the people or sometimes folks can overthink this. There is this ongoing debate, if you will, on technology, ai involvement, large language models and how they're gonna be incorporated into talent acquisition and people motions, and I think there's a way to do both. Folks are concerned. This is a people function. You need to have real relationships driving it, but I really love the idea. I think that they're not mutually exclusive. Like you can leverage technology in bots and these types of things to give people answers quickly. I love the idea of being able to provide a ton of resources on the careers page where somebody can just directly ask questions to the system, because it creates a much better experience when people can just get the information they need. Like, in that way you don't have candidates that maybe are not aligned flooding your top of funnel Two. It just makes it easier for them. It just creates a more fluid experience from the jump.
Speaker 1:So I think honestly, a lot of the things that are discussed in the screening call I believe should be accessible to candidates on a careers page, and whether that's like through videos or through the botter, ideally like both in several different ways, because it's just better.
Speaker 1:It's you know, and to some extent I know it's not an exact parallel, but it's like almost from a sales perspective. Ideally, before you jump on the call with a rep, you have your head wrapped around the product If it's something that you really would be interested in buying. And just imagine that analogy if somebody was like you know, sales is a people business, you know, and so we don't really need to provide this tech or these answers up front, like when we say that obviously seems a bit silly, right, and I think the same translates into town acquisition and people. It's like you're not removing the human element, you're just alleviating or removing a barrier to information and you're freeing up the time of your recruiters. You're freeing up the time of the candidates. It just helps folks work more efficiently and so they don't have to wait to get for their information they need. So I really feel like this should this is gonna become table stakes. Every company should be doing this.
Speaker 2:I think it is table stakes now and I'm glad we started doing it a year ago, so we were early on and I feel very fortunate that we did it because it has saved us time. But I will tell you I will go back to the human element, because it's super important is our recruiters are tea partners. They are super good at telling our story, they know the story and they take a lot of pride. And if you've got a candidate who's on the fence or they don't understand something, their ability to educate and talk to the candidates and get them to a place where, oh, I'm very interested in the job, it's a real skill and a bot will never be able to do that. And the same thing with hiring managers. Recently last week, we got a rating on Glassdoor and it was all about the recruiter and the hiring manager and how they made the process amazing, and you don't see that very often. So I was super proud to see that our process is working and it was a positive one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's like when you have technology to provide a lot of the tactical here's how this works type of stuff, you free people up to talk, do the storytelling, thinking about nuance, too right, getting to know the candidate or the employee, really understand their needs and cater the conversation to them. I feel like that's how we can leverage technology to actually make the people interactions like more valuable actually. So if you actually really value the people interactions and the quality of those conversations and the outcomes they can produce, you should be leveraging technology to free people up to actually do that.
Speaker 2:Yeah it's worked well for us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think this is a good segue into talking about the AI product, so could you share a little bit about that with us?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we just announced in Berlin, at the biggest conference for technologists, that we at Stack Overflow are introducing Stack Overflow AI. It's an opportunity for our technology to work in conjunction with other people's systems. For example, if I asked a question that was very specific in my company, it wasn't a technical question. That's just in the Stack Overflow library. That data would become available directly internally and that's utilizing an AI approach. There's a Slack integration that's AI focused as well that we are going to pilot. All of this will be piloted first at the end of this month, so we're super excited that it's going to pilot. We have over 2,000 customers that are waiting I think no-transcript bated breath for the rollout, but there's still a lot of work obviously behind the scenes, but there's a great deal that Stack Overflow is going to be able to push out to even the community where AI data will be available.
Speaker 2:The approach originally was you could ask a question. If it's in the library, it would just pop up If somebody asked the question. You give a thumbs up or a thumbs down if the question was good or if it was not good. All of that data would be available in a library format for our customers as they came on board so they wouldn't feel like they had to start from scratch. They would be able to use their own data online and be able to see that data because of the technology we have built within Stack Overflow for teams. Those are for the companies that buy Stack Overflow for teams and we can help them integrate Slack. We can help them integrate the AI product into their knowledge-based systems as well.
Speaker 2:For example, stack Overflow we utilize it for HR questions similar to what you were talking about those basic questions I want to know how many days vacation I have, I want to know when the holidays are for the United States versus Canada All these basic questions that HR people really don't have time to answer is now available on Stack Overflow, our instance at Stack Overflow. So stackoverflowcom it's in our platform, it's already there and we're utilizing it. It's a great place where you can integrate a bot as well and you could have somebody answering those questions, similar to a Slack channel. You can name your bot and then you could actually utilize it. There's more to follow. I'm not a technical expertise at here, but there's more to follow. But it's super exciting for the company and I think it's super exciting for our community and our partners.
Speaker 1:I think it's getting into the specific data of the company, which makes it really valuable. Just to follow up on what you're saying about the HR functionality you were mentioning, where somebody could maybe even type into about how many days of vacation do I have left, that would mean that it is it integrating with an HRIS or how does that work, because that's really cool. It's not just general questions about benefits or career progression, but it's actually dialed into their employee records profile whatever. How does that work? I know we're not technical on this.
Speaker 2:Go ahead and share that. That'd be cool. So it's the online system that works with bamboo. So in conjunction with bamboo, yeah, so yeah, it would be able to go in and say you have, you accrue at this rate. You basically accrue six hours of pay period and then you have based on what you put into the system today you have X left for the year.
Speaker 1:I love that vacation?
Speaker 2:Yeah, which people? That's the number one question how many days of vacation? However, let's be clear. Our bamboo system is open to all managers and employees. I can click on it right now and it'll tell me how many hours I have of vacation, and we have unlimited sick time. And another great benefit It'll show me that if I just plug into bamboo, and it's one click. So these are things that we're trying to make it as easy as possible for employees, so they don't have to go into multiple systems, and that's what employees want. Make my life easy. I don't want to go into your HRIS, I don't want to go into your ATS. I want to work into one system. That's the beauty of what Stack Overflow can do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's really cool and just from a productive time perspective, it's just sometimes, even if something doesn't take a lot of time, it could scatter us. If there's some things where, if it's on my calendar, even if it's only 30 minutes out of my week, it's like it's taking up headspace. I have to be laser focused on these three things. It's not necessarily about the minutes it takes. It's more about clearing up my headspace to focus on the problems that I need to solve, and so I think, like these types of tools, it's like it cuts down on that even more. Whether it's simplicity when it comes to logging into a system and getting what you need quickly, or using some kind of AI enabled functionality, it's really as much as possible, cutting down on the time that it takes for people to get what they need so their headspace can be on making an impact and making a difference every day, right.
Speaker 2:Yep, you got it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is really cool stuff. We're coming up on time here. Debbie, thank you so much for joining us today. This has been very beneficial. I know you're going to be guiding talent strategy for a lot of executives out there. You're more than welcome to come back on the show anytime. This was great.
Speaker 2:Thank you, James, for having me. It was so much fun and I really appreciate your partnership and having me on the show.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much and for everybody tuning in, thank you for joining us. We have some really exciting episodes coming up. Daniel Chay is going to be coming back on the show, founder CEO of Greenhouse. We're also going to have the CPO of DocuSign coming on very soon, and I also have a really exciting guest coming on soon who is the CEO of a leading category, leading recruitment technology company around, the same caliber as the Greenhouse. So make sure to tune in for that one too, or stay posted so I can tell you more about that. But anyways, thank you for joining us and we'll see you next time. Take care.
