The Breakthrough Hiring Show: Recruiting and Talent Acquisition Conversations

EP 184: Why Pairing Ambition With Kindness Builds Winning Teams

• James Mackey: Recruiting, Talent Acquisition, Hiring, SaaS, Tech, Startups, growth-stage, RPO, James Mackey, Diversity and Inclusion, HR, Human Resources, business, Retention Strategies, Onboarding Process, Recruitment Metrics, Job Boards, Social Media Re

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Ana King, Chief People Officer at Sapi, reflects on her journey from Bucharest to London and how cultural studies shaped her philosophy on leadership and recruiting. She shares how building trust between CEOs, finance, and teams, drives profitability and sustainable growth, from hiring for “smart and kind” to aligning people strategy with business outcomes and leading change through listening and learning.

Books mentioned: Daniel Goleman, Hernan Diaz


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SPEAKER_00:

Anna King, welcome to the show. For everybody tuning in, Anna is the CPO at SAPI. So, anyways, Anna, thank you for joining me today.

SPEAKER_01:

No, thank you, James. I'm delighted to be here. Really looking forward to our conversation.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to it as well. Let's start just uh, we'd love to learn more about you. Where are you initially from?

SPEAKER_01:

Sure. So I'm originally from a country called Romania in Eastern Europe. I was very much born and raised there. And afterwards, when I was 21 years old, I moved over to the UK initially to study, and then of course to start up my career. That's pretty much me in a nutshell. And obviously, ever since, I've been pretty much working on that career, which I guess brought us here to have this chat today.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, really excited about this. And it sounds like we actually have to some extent some shared experiences. I think I had mentioned in the prep call that my daughter is half Romanian, my ex-wife is Romanian. Yeah, I actually lived in Bucharest for about a year and a half. I built an office over there when I started my company about a decade ago. Romania definitely has a special place in my heart.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, that's amazing. That was surprising to hear and very pleasant. So it's always so lovely to have something in common.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So what part of Romania are you from?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, good question. I'm from Bucharest from the capital.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, yeah, born and raised, like I said. But and you were saying you were quite familiar with the city as well, right?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I had uh uh office right off Calavictoria.

SPEAKER_01:

Nice location.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I was I love that's probably my favorite part of the city. So it was definitely intentional. We were right next to a beautiful park, and I forget what it was called.

SPEAKER_01:

That would be Chish Midio if you were so.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, so I haven't been there uh in about four or five years, unfortunately. But so it was the office was right. I don't know if you know like those office buildings that they have the big arches and then the courtyard in the middle, and then you go up into the office space. They're like lining up the Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, that's really cool. That's that's fantastic. I mean, it rarely gets better than that, as far as I'm concerned. Really cool.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it was a really nice office space. I really enjoyed it there, and it was like a 15-minute walk from Old Town, which was nice. We then we got an office right off Uniri Boulevard that was and it was like very close to the old city, which was nice.

SPEAKER_01:

That makes total sense. Yeah, that's a really nice area, and I think it's getting, I'm not sure if you've been there recently, but it's getting nicer and nicer by the day. I think you can really feel the development and everything. Yeah, I I was saying the last time I went, which I think was about a year ago, that the city center definitely looks like it's got a very um very nice facelift, really. It looks gorgeous at the moment. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Uh I really need to go back. We still have a couple of employees in Romania and Bucharest, so I need to go back and visit. My daughter goes back once a year every summer. Her mom takes her, and she'll go, but she goes back for about a month. So they're her family's initially from Ployesh.

SPEAKER_01:

All right, not too far from where I'm from.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah, about 45 minutes outside of the city. So so then, so you went to to high school in Bucharest as well, or or uh very much all those formative years, yeah, you're correct.

SPEAKER_01:

So, of course, um everything from primary school to then gymnasium and afterwards high school. After that, I actually worked quite a bit to improve my English, of course, because before you make the move to an English-speaking country, surely you want to make sure that you're going to be able to speak it pretty well. So I did actually, I did go to the University of Bucharest to do uh a course where I would improve my English. And when I felt ready after a couple of years, yeah, as I said, when I was about 21, that's when I actually made the move and moved to the UK to do a proper degree, to go to university and do a proper bachelor's degree.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

That's great. That's great. And I would love to just talk to you a little bit about your upbringing in Romania, and you've kind of experienced two different cultures to some extent, right? Um coming uh being born and raised in Romania during a huge transitional period in the country as well, to now in the UK London culture. So I'm curious, like it's a unique background and experience, and I would love to learn more about how you think where you come from has shaped your perspectives and values as it pertains to working with people today.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, great question. I love that question. Yeah, you're right. Of course, uh, I have very much experienced these two cultures. I will say, James, they're really different. That's for sure. I think we can agree on that, which is quite nice because, of course, it was very refreshing to kind of absorb British culture when I moved here to the UK. But of course, Romanian culture and everything that comes with it is very close to my heart, as you'd imagine. I think it was an interesting transition also because when I did move here, that would have been in 2010. I think the country itself, Romania, was going through a major transition, right? I mean, it took quite a lot of time for it to kind of integrate itself into a more, I suppose, Western way of living and carrying, even carrying business, right? And then, yeah, I guess when I moved here, I found it first of all refreshing. I absolutely delved into letting the UK very much for me as an individual and as a professional, because I always had the intention to settle here. So I came here really with an open heart and an open mind, letting the UK influence me, but still very much keeping everything that has to do with Romanian culture. I think it's quite known that if you come, I suppose, from that eastern part of the world, you might have a knack for negotiating well, you might have a knack for connecting well with people, you might bring just a different perspective, I guess, to working life as well, much to as you would to your personal life. But at the same time, I find that it blended really well, at least it did for me, with British culture. Because of course, here you learn. My experience has been that here in the UK and you can really polish up on your diplomacy skills, on your diplomatic skills, you can perhaps add more structure to your speech and all sorts of manner of wonderful things. I think really these two cultures have made me, but yeah, I obviously can only speak for myself. You know, you might have a chat with someone that has a similar background to mine, and you might find that they view things quite differently. So I certainly speak for myself.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So when you were growing up, what were you into? What kind of kid were you in? Were you like sports or more into reading, or what were you like?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I mean, interesting question, I guess. Um, I think again, I speak from my own experience, but I was brought up in a family that focused massively on academic achievements. I was very much molded that way by my parents and my grandparents. So the focus was definitely on achieving academically. So it was all about moving from, I guess, what was you could say perhaps a mix of working class and middle class environment and moving slowly into trying to achieve academically, go to a very good high school and afterwards obviously polish up on my language skills and so on in order to eventually try to make this move to just move abroad and settle. But yeah, you you were asking me about sports. I wouldn't say that I was a sporty child, unfortunately. I think the focus was massively on achieving academically. And let me put that in context because that could mean different things to different people. We're talking here um a regime where I think the focus, at least for the first 14, 15 years of my life, would have been massively on just school and homework. And you probably know that Romanians are quite hardcore when it comes down to that. You're talking about really just going to school, coming home, and then doing another seven to eight hours of homework. So that was really my experience, but yeah, I think it shaped me in the right way. So I'm very grateful for it.

SPEAKER_00:

So when you went to you initially moved to London, is that right?

SPEAKER_01:

Moved to London and stayed here.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, got it. And so, what did you study at university?

SPEAKER_01:

Um, so over here I came and did a media and cultural studies degree, which I loved. I would highly recommend this to most international students that maybe don't have yet anything worked out in terms of very specific or narrow passions, or maybe haven't yet made up exactly their mind in terms of what they'd like to study, or what they'd like to then go on and do in their career. I think it's amazing to do a media and cultural studies degree because it really kind of slowly and gently educates you to understand the environment you've actually moved in. So you learn about what kind of papers you might want to read in order to form a balanced opinion. You learn about, I suppose, really, what culture means in that specific country. And yeah, I found it hugely beneficial to do that sort of degree.

SPEAKER_00:

I I think cultural studies are really interesting. Cultural studies, contemporary study of religion, I find also fascinating. Okay. What were some of the classes you took in cultural studies that are more impactful classes?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I would definitely speak before anything else about a specific course where they focused a lot on um, I suppose, educating us to think a little bit outside of the box, not to fall into what would be the dominant ideology in a specific environment. Really think very clearly do I recognize a dominant ideology and can I think a little bit around it? Can I form my own opinion? Can I not just buy immediately into anything that's served to me? So I loved that course. And I guess another one that I really loved from oh my god, that's so many years ago now, right? We're talking 13 years ago, but I really loved another course that focused on understanding city life really well. So, really kind of deconstructing city life. What does it mean? What does it come with? What is there to enjoy about the city? How do you understand cities, appreciate them? And how do you really become a member of that city? You leave it, you breathe it, you appreciate it, and you use it to your advantage. So I that's I suppose that's the second course that comes to mind. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

That sounds really cool. I actually have that second course. I never really thought about that topic before. That's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01:

So nice. Yeah, it was lovely. It was lovely. I think it's good for young people, right?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, oh, definitely. So cultural studies, I'd love to dive in a little more to that because I also think there's probably some really interesting parallels that we can speak to as it pertains to building culture and teams. And probably that was potentially a core formative experience for you, right? Totally. So, how exactly would you even maybe this is too philosophical in nature, but like how would you specifically define culture or like what makes up culture?

SPEAKER_01:

Wow, amazing question. What makes up culture? I guess it's you probably appreciate or understand culture, um, or I would through differences. So let's start there, right? I think if we think about how you might experience culture if you quite simply go on holiday, I guess it's really easy and accessible to refer to it through differences. You know, what might you find different if you experience a different culture than the one you're used to? So let's imagine, James, that you and I are now going on holiday to, I don't know, Spain. Let's go. So you're based in the US, I'm based in the UK. Uh, we probably are used to a specific type of working life, to a specific schedule. We have a certain understanding of work-life balance and so on. But then if you think about when you go to Spain, you might quite literally just observe around you. Maybe you see a bunch of people eating a little bit later into the evening, even though they might have children around them, around the tables. Maybe they stay a bit later rather than going home and putting the kids to bed, say, I don't know, 7 or 8 p.m. Maybe they stay a little bit later. Maybe, you know, the way they integrate family life into their own daily experience is just different, right? Than maybe it would be in the UK or in the US. So even something as small as this, but that's why I went straight for experiencing culture through differences, because maybe that is really the easiest way to explain it. I guess it's just the makeup of what life feels like in a specific place. What are the norms, what are the habits, what are the expectations, what's considered rude or polite. All of that is just so very different from one place to the other. So that's, I suppose, my very clumsy way of going around and explaining culture, but also, I guess, an accessible way for most of us.

SPEAKER_00:

So I find this topic fascinating, and I think maybe that's one reason that we've both found ourselves in a people business because it's all about people. I think some really interesting aspects of culture that I've dialed in on that I find really interesting is of course, like religion plays a big role, I think, in cultural norms. Absolutely. So I think that's really interesting. And I've done some reading on just like the differences and similarities of different religions and how they've evolved over the years and how that impacts culture. Another one that I find really interesting is language and the connection that language has to our culture and to our way of thinking and way of being, our word choice or the way of communicating the syntax to the different vocabularies of each culture and how we describe things actually impacts our perspective. Absolutely. Which I think is a pretty cool rabbit hole to go down in terms of studying as well.

SPEAKER_01:

Of course, I think you'll find that with most language courses, they actually do introduce an element of culture because they do believe that it will help you learn that language with more ease. So that's been my experience when I was, of course, focused on learning English as well. And if you were, yeah, you're absolutely correct. If you were to go to the British Institute in Bucharest, for instance, in Romania where I'm from, they would try to feed you little bits of, oh, you know, in the UK they have cucumber sandwiches or whatever that may be, right? Just to help you a little bit integrate that into language. So I think language and religion, you're absolutely correct. They are massive pillars of it.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And then on the religion side, you have some cultures where it's the primary religions are like conversionist, or um, where their their goal is to I suppose convert folks, right? Like you have Christianity, uh, Islam, and then you have more insular religions where they don't really have the desire to convert anybody to their religion. It's a little bit more insular, internally focused. And I think there's some interesting parallels when you look at culture and thought processes and how that translates into family life and business based on things like that.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely. I conclude.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's a fascinating degree. What you studied is something that I could definitely see myself getting into, or in hindsight, being like, oh man, that would have been a really cool degree to get.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, no, it was very cool and very beneficial to get you started into a new place that you probably are still trying to work out. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, cool. So, how did you end up getting into your line of work? I mean, your first recruiting job, was this a intentional based on your interest and desire and people topics, or did you stumble in it like a lot of folks?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it's interesting. I hear that a lot. I hear that from so many peers that they've stumbled into it. I wouldn't say it was quite like that for me. I actually did a little bit of research in the last couple of months of my university degree. I focused a little bit on bringing some analytical thought to what I might be interested in, what I might be good at, and and I did add, I'll admit, a slice of honesty to that in terms of what I'd like to my life to actually look like. So, you know, what does a good lifestyle mean to me, and so on. So when I thought about that combined with the socioeconomic level and so on, I kind of narrowed it and narrowed it. And in a matter of a few months, I thought that I might actually try to go for just grad schemes in recruitment. And that's exactly what I did. So I connected with a couple of recruiters at the time that were focused on placing graduates like myself into those recruitment schemes, and I didn't find it particularly difficult. It took me two weeks to secure a role from the moment I graduated. I went for a bunch of interviews and then I received a bunch of offers and then I made my choice. And I started very much on a grad scheme. I was lucky to start on a very thorough grad scheme. So for a year I worked for a recruitment agency called Chapman Black, where they invested heavily in teaching you a lot how to become a top recruiter at the time. I benefited from a really robust and thorough grad scheme where they spent, I would say every couple of days, they would spend three to four hours teaching you how to negotiate, how to explore the market, how to understand a new role in recruitment, how to focus to maximize at the time what we would call billings and so on. So yeah, it was amazing. And I stayed there for about a year.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I saw so you I was looking at your LinkedIn profile. So you started out on the agency side and then transitioned into in-house. Was Google your first in-house?

SPEAKER_01:

Correct. It was my first rodeo into in-house recruitment. I think for me, it was really important to make sure that I make that transition from agency recruitment to in-house recruitment at a time when I felt ready. And I also felt certain that it was the right move to make. And once I was certain that it was the right move to make and the right time, I wanted, as you might imagine, like most of us, I wanted the very best for myself. And you know, the question I get quite often is how I actually got into recruiting for Google. And what I basically did was to choose a couple of top tech businesses, and I just went on a whole mission to message as many people from places at the time like uh Facebook, because there was no meta back then, so it was Facebook, places like Google, places like Apple. And I remember I was really focused on big names and really just messaging people to try to see if anyone would give me a chance to interview. Um, so that's how it happened. Yeah, as you can see on my CV, that went well. I did spend about a year and a half recruiting for Google as the first in-house experience. And as you can imagine, James, that taught me a lot. I learned an awful lot while recruiting for them, understanding how to assess profiles at that very high level. So, yeah, it was hugely beneficial.

SPEAKER_00:

So, when you were starting out in recruiting, what was different than you anticipated, or what was an assumption that you maybe had made in the early days of recruiting that after a few years in you realized wasn't the case or things, it was a little different than you thought it would be?

SPEAKER_01:

I love this question. I think initially I would have thought probably when I was just a little bud starting out, I would have thought that it's all about looking at CVs and deciding who's right, who's wrong, and then uh, you know, working. With people and just offering tons of support. So perhaps I had that kind of rose-tinted view of what it might be. But of course, what surprised me, as I find that is the case with a variety of peers, what surprised me was the fact that it was all about establishing a specific rhythm of work in order to become successful. It was all about a ton of volume in terms of, you know, how many people you talk to, whether they're initially clients or candidates, right, in the agency world. And afterwards, really just kind of staying focused on how important the numbers game is in recruitment. To me, it still is very much a numbers game. I feel that you get very much what you put in. So I think that was the surprise. It was just how focused on numbers, how focused on staying consistent it would be in order to become successful. And really the sales element in it as well, right? There is a very strong sales element in recruitment from my point of view.

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely. And I think that's an important aspect, or one of the benefits of coming up in talent acquisition prior to moving into a CPO role, right, is really understanding the funnel aspects to the job, the parallels between sales, right, and recruiting over there. Essentially, I suppose one way we could look at building organizations is capturing two ideal demand funnels, right? We have our ideal client profile and we have our ideal candidate profile. So we have ICPs on both sides of the house, right? And then it's about converting qualified pipelines, right? Absolutely. Identifying qualified pipeline, having high standards for the SQLs, if you will, sales qualified leads, and making sure only the absolute best fit folks are making it through. And I do feel like that's a big advantage going into a CPO role.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely. It's a massive advantage. And I think what I will probably always carry with me is really that hiring wealth is, in my view, the very core of making a business successful. So yeah, of course, if you come from recruitment or talent acquisition, that always tends to stay with you.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And so now you're in a talent acquisition and people leadership role, right? You're overseeing TA and people ops. I'm curious to learn more about a transformative moment, a breakthrough experience. It could have been with a mentor, a member of your leadership team, maybe a founder you worked for. We're talking about now you're in your prime, right? Like you've achieved a high level of success in the tech industry. I would love to learn more, yeah, about any kind of breakthrough moments you've had over the past few years that has really shaped the executive that you've become at this point.

SPEAKER_01:

Um absolutely. There would be quite a few. You mentioned also dealing with founders and everything. So I think I would like to perhaps start with that. So I guess a breakthrough moment for me was first of all understanding that as a senior talent or people professional, when you make your choice of what business you'd like to work for, it's very important to make sure that you can establish the right synergy with the founder of that business. So I guess a pivotal moment or a breakthrough moment was for me meeting our current CEO at SAPI. I find that the relationship between the people leader and the CEO is instrumental to the business. So a break from moment was meeting with her, realizing that is the right kind of founder for me. And of course, I found out later that she felt the same way. She thought this is the right people leader for the business that she wants to obviously turn into a success. So I think that was a break from moment in the sense that really, unless that relationship between the people leader and the CEO is fantastic, unless they work together, unless they move into the same direction and they also deploy absolute trust in each other, I think that will show up in perhaps less revenue than you might want, in perhaps a bunch more problems for the business that you might want to have, and so on. So a whole host of problems might be derived from not having those elements in that relationship that I've described. So yeah, this was a pivotal moment for me. And I'll be honest, I did have actually when I made that move into actually becoming a people leader in a startup, I did meet with quite a lot of CEOs. And I'll admit that there were a couple of interviews where I thought, oh, well, this relationship definitely that this is not going to work out. And it's fine, it's fine to just admit that it's not going to work out and find the right CEO for yourself.

SPEAKER_00:

So, how do you do that, right? Um, I think I feel like particularly when you get to an executive level, being able to choose or figure out which company is gonna be ideal for you and for them is really important. You're operating on a team, you're operating on the executive team, and certainly there is a lot under our control. There's also things that aren't, where I mean that's what a team is, right? Like you have to be able to find folks that you're gonna work well with. What do you look for in those types of relationships? Like, how do you suss out the leaders and the culture that are a good fit?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I suppose there are a bunch of ways to do that. My mind goes straight away to the fact that you might want to ensure you are compatible with that person, but also that you complement each other well. So we all have strengths and weaknesses, right? And I think it's very important to match your strengths to their weaknesses and vice versa. I think that's a start point. So, you know, if for instance, let's say as a people leader, bring a lot of recruitment experience, or you know what building the right kind of HR foundation, you know what that really needs to look like, then you could very well pair yourself with an ambitious, young, and motivated CEO that maybe has not been three times already a founder. Then that's a good match, maybe, right? Or flip it, just take it, just literally look at it from the complete opposite point of view. So you might want maybe if someone has been a three times founder, then they could probably be paired with a slightly more junior people leader, maybe not someone very seasoned, and maybe someone that is also figuring things out and could learn something from that CEO. I think it's complementing each other well. I think that's very important. And I think the second thing that my mind goes to as an important element in figuring out whether you can develop the right kind of relationship with a CEO as a people leader, is can you establish genuine trust with that person? Can you really build the kind of bond, the kind of trust that is rather unbreakable? Because if you don't feel that person can fully trust you and you can fully trust them, then that's again that fissure in the relationship will show up time and time again. So I would start there, complementing each other really well and being able to trust each other very well and being at the right point in your career for them, and vice versa.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I want to dive more into culture and startup culture. I think some similarities across the board for every startup. When you look at building culture, particularly with your background in cultural studies and being multicultural yourself, how do you define a culture and how do you build a culture that's going to be effective, performing at the most competitive level possible, which is essentially high growth to hypergrowth tech? How do you think about that?

SPEAKER_01:

I love that question. Again, I think it's important from my point of view to not go in wanting to immediately shake things up for the sake of shaking them up. I think it's important to go in as a people leader into a business, to just go in with a really curious mind. It's important for the first three, four months to do a lot of listening rather than being prone to action for the sake of action. Really understanding what's the base level of the existing culture. Because even if startup is very young, they don't yet have maybe many people, or no one's really set up those culture foundations, if you like, it's very likely they already have a culture, right? They already have a set of behaviors, they already have a set of values, really. So it's important to figure those out first. And then I guess after you understood what they have as culture already, I think it's important to figure out what's not working very well. What could you actually improve? What's everyone's view? What could be improved? Why it should be improved? I think it's also important to connect with the finance leader. I think that's pivotal. What are the pain points of the finance leader? Because really, the whole point, like you said, of building amazing culture is to ensure the success of that business, right? That's really the whole point of working really hard to build an amazing culture is to help the business become successful through that culture. So I think it's very telling to talk to the finance leader and understand what's actually not working. What do they think is holding us back in terms of generating more revenue, right? Or if we generate a ton of revenue and they're already extremely happy as a finance leader, maybe what's holding us back from that next step to reach profitability. So it's really kind of doing a thorough listening tour to understand the business as completely as possible, and then stepping into action mode, into fixing mode. Work out what needs to be fixed and why first. And then I suppose with a lot of patience, you can slowly gain people's trust and build the culture that will be conducive to success for the business.

SPEAKER_00:

So, what would you say for leaders that maybe are struggling with culture or there's gaps between where they are and where they want to be? Where do you start? What you're saying about connecting with finance and just purely from like a PL growth perspective, looking at what they think the gaps are, of course, and probably different leaders across the organization too, right? But what's next? I would think that there's like two aspects to it, right? You have your existing team that you're trying to shift the culture with, and then you have the ability to hire different potentially behavioral fits or culture fits or ads or however you want to put it to the organization as well. I think probably even the harder of the two is to take an existing team. Maybe you don't agree, I don't know, but take that existing team and improve the culture. Do you have any advice on like how do you do that when you need to go through a large cultural shift?

SPEAKER_01:

It really depends on the size of the business. It depends on how many people they have, right? If the business is already, let's just say if they've already got 500 people, then of course you need to accept what's there already and try to see what you can slowly change in time in the right way. But if it's a very small business and you find that you've also you've almost got a clean slate, then that's I suppose a lot easier to just build from scratch on, right? So it depends on the business first. I mean, the type of work of a people leader is vastly different from a small business that's a bit scrappy, let's say, to a large corporate. In my view, if we're talking a business that has up to 100 people in comparison to a business that has maybe more than a thousand people, those are at times very different jobs, even though you might have the same title. So let's start by admitting to that and being very transparent in that regard. But I guess in terms of actually affecting the right change, it really is, I think for me, before anything else, it comes down to listening, understanding what's there first, doing that first thorough listening tour to really understand what you're working with. What are the pain points? How do they relate to the perceived financial success of that business? So it's really kind of trying to see what needs to be fixed, really. But again, that comes down to the kind of relationship you'll be able to have with the CEO. Because if you have a C, let's say you're an exceptional people leader, let's say you step into a business where maybe they don't have huge problems in terms of culture. But if that relationship between the people leader and the CEO is not amazing and based on trust and collaboration, I do not believe that success can come out of that. I I just don't see it. So it really is about building trust and being a good listener initially, and then being very analytical, very structured, and getting on with the work that needs to be done. That's how I would see it. Does that does that framing make sense?

SPEAKER_00:

It makes a lot of sense. And I'm wondering too, it's like when you're talking about the importance of really listening and slowing down. Would you say that your background that studying doing cultural studies really at the core, also looking at distinguishing differences, right? I would think probably impacts how you think about process as well, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Very much so. You're absolutely correct. It does impact how I think about things. And I am very much of the school of thought that good culture equals future success for the business. And what I mean by good culture, I guess if I had to strip it down to a very basic summary, what we've done at SAPI, I guess, is a good example for it. We've focused on hiring really smart people of very high caliber in terms of cognitive abilities, but we also ensured they would be extremely kind and collaborative. And if you have these two guiding principles as your North Star, that's a good place to start. You want people to be very smart, ambitious, but you also want them to understand that they need to get along with everyone, right? They need to be kind, collaborative. Then I guess that is a good foundation on which in time you can become more sophisticated, you can have new wish lists to add to that kind of culture every year. But I think that's a good foundation. That's how I see it. And as I said, we did that at SAPI and it's worked out pretty well.

SPEAKER_00:

All right, that's great. How long have you been in the CPO role?

SPEAKER_01:

The CPO one, I think it's about seven to eight months.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah, okay, cool. Okay, so you made it to C level. Now you're overseeing people ops and talent acquisition for a tech company. When you look at your own journey and career path and trajectory, right? What's next? Like what's most important to you at this point in your life and career?

SPEAKER_01:

At this point in time, much like our CEO, the main point for me is to get us to profitability. And I assure you, James, I'm as focused on that as she is. We have a common goal. We need to get to profitability. I think we're doing well, and therefore we just need to now figure out again what needs a bit of tweaking, what needs a bit of fixing on the people side, on the culture side, in order to make sure that everyone else in the business can work like a well-oiled machine in order to get us to profitability, right? That kind of feeds into everything that I have on my mind right now. And as you might know with startups, right, when you join a startup, so I joined them about two years and a half ago. When you join a startup, you kind of need to want that business to become successful, right? Their success is your success as a people leader, especially if you've built that people function from scratch, like I did here. So that's really at the moment what I would like to see happen. I would like us to become profitable. And I guess once that would happen, how do we get better? How do we generate even more profit? How do we move forward, really? I think that is the next, yeah, that is really the next goal in my mind. And of course, if I'm thinking more long term, I would absolutely love to grow into a board advisor. If we're thinking five to 10 years' time, I'd love to grow into a board advisor. I'd love to get involved in as many startups as possible, even as a non-exec director, eventually, if we're talking 10 to 15 years' time from now. So I do have a bunch of goals, but I think the most important thing is to get SAPI to reach the ultimate point of success.

SPEAKER_00:

So, how do you think about your own personal development in order to accomplish these ambitious goals? You're now in charge of partnering with the CEO to take the company to profitability, to continue to grow aggressively, to build this amazing culture. What are you working on as an individual, or how do you think about your own growth to be able to get the most out of your career and get your most out of life at this point in time?

SPEAKER_01:

There's a bunch of things that I have in mind, but I do very much think it's important to stay on top of everything that changes and the changes rapid in the tech sector, right? I'm speaking here about everything from tools to not being left behind in terms of using AI in the right manner and at the right level. Also, I guess a lot of thought in terms of my own development goes into being a good guide to our leadership team as a whole. So helping them develop. A huge part of my role, like you would find with most people at my level, is to help the leadership team to be fantastic when it comes down to managing others and when it comes down to being strategic, right? And doing the right thing for the business. So it's coaching the leaders in our business. It's something I'm focused quite a bit on. Also, of course, coaching the people in my own team, getting them to be successful. Their success is my success. I guess it's also just keep refining everything about me that can be refined. It's really good to come to this sort of thought process and this sort of conversation with a lot of humility, in the sense that none of us have finished articles. So I think it's really important to figure out from time to time, maybe quarterly, to ask, okay, what course could I possibly take? What could I improve at? You know, is it that I should learn a little bit more about how I don't know, AI could take us to the next level? Is it that I could learn a little bit more about communication, right? I mean, it could really be anything. It could be any course. Is it that I could get better at public speaking so that I, you know, I evangelize the name of the business further? It could be anything, but I think it's important to bring humility to this process and to do an assessment of where I am every quarter.

SPEAKER_00:

I'd be curious to learn how your definition of success has potentially changed now that you're at the C level, executive level versus back in the days when you were at Google or on the agency side. For you, just as an individual, I mean, has your perspective on success changed?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, absolutely, it has. Absolutely. I think most of us could be forgiven when we're younger of just assuming that success. Success equals status or success just equals a certain reaching a certain financial level. But of course, these days, I'm thinking quite a lot about being able to stay on top of my work, but at the same time staying healthy. I'm also thinking a lot about work-life balance, because whilst your experience and your knowledge increase in time, I do find that perhaps your stamina is not as it was when you were 25 years old. My stamina is not as it was when I was 25, that's for sure. So I guess you start thinking about how you can be productive, how you can actually work smarter rather than harder. You can think about how you can be a bit more strategic, how you can stay healthy. So I guess success means being, for me, success means being happy, being pleased with where I am in terms of my career, but also being happy with how much care I take of myself mentally, physically. Do I still have time to learn? That's also an indicator of success, because if I find that I don't have the time to learn, that means in a year or two years' time I would have stagnated. So it's such a complex ecosystem as we age in terms of defining success. And when we're younger, perhaps we have a more simplistic view of what success might mean.

SPEAKER_00:

I definitely agree with that. It's finding balance, right? And it's not even just balance. Like I think what you brought up that's really I find really interesting is that you're not just thinking about balance in terms of like work-life balance traditionally between your personal life and your career, but it's also like balance in terms of how you're investing time in your career versus execution and being forward-thinking and learning. There has to be a balancing act there. And maybe it makes sense for us to be intentional about finding that balance. So it's like we're continuously fueling and investing in our own future, right? Absolutely. I already have a pretty good sense for this. Um, you know, you bring up humility, you bring up listening, culture. What type of leader do you want to continue to become?

SPEAKER_01:

I think I would love to be guided by a mix of ambition and kindness. So I think I don't believe in achieving success by being ruthless. I believe that success can be achieved by staying on track, having a North Star at all times. So, yes, being ambitious. But I do think it's very important to be kind and to deploy all of these efforts towards success and growth with a lot of empathy for others. That's really what I'd like to mix ambition and kindness.

SPEAKER_00:

I love that. So I'd love to cover a couple more questions with you. I wanted to just get a sense for everybody tuning in, right? Like I think everybody that's part of the show, whether as a guest or audience and myself, we're always looking for ways to improve. We're looking for areas of development. Um is there any book that you feel like's had the biggest impact on your life or career?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh goodness, yes. I love I'm an avid reader, so I absolutely love reading books. I think you've opened Pandora's box just now. So I could see it could really go on with a massive list. But I think in terms of books that immediately come to my mind, why don't we do this? I'll focus on one that I think was important in my formative years, and then I guess I'll focus on a recent one that's kind of perhaps shaped the way I think about things. So I think one that really was incredibly impactful when I was roughly I must have been 17 years old, 18 years old. It was recommended by one of my teachers in one of my professors in high school. It's Daniel Goldman's book on emotional intelligence. I find that for a young person, or for the young person I was at the time, it provided me with reassurance that there isn't just one type of intelligence. Um, you know, it's it's very easy, I suppose, given my background, to believe that the only type of intelligence is the one that has to do with STEM, right? So sciences in general, or pattern recognition. So the logical part of what it means to be intelligent. But I think for me it meant a lot to have that book recommended by one of my professors and to say, hey, actually, there's this other side of things that if explored in the right way, so if you explore your emotional intelligence and you make use of it in the right way, it could really deliver tremendous success in the long term as an individual for yourself. So that really was a pivotal moment for me, understanding that there's more to it than being good at maths, basically. And a book that has made an impression on me more recently, I think it was a year ago or so, if I'm not mistaken. I read a book called Trust. I think it won an award. I would have to look it up. Um, yeah, it's called Trust. I think his name is Hernan Diaz, if I'm not mistaken. I'll get the name for you in a minute. Yes, Hernan Diaz. I got it. I got it right the first time around. So yeah, I think that really made an impression on me in the sense that the message I would take from it is not everything is as it might appear. And I guess most people that read that book would have a very different view of what's happening there by the time they finish the book. So I think it's important to not take anything at face value, to look a little bit deeper into situations, into people, and to kind of take your time to make up your own mind.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, that ties back to what you studied in school.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00:

It's like a common theme, right? Like throughout this episode. Throughout your life.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely. I think that just shows, James, our formative ears are massive.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, oh yeah, for sure. For sure. Well, I haven't heard of that second book. For everybody tuning in, we'll drop the links to the books in the description of the episode. But Anna, I really wanted to just take a moment to say thank you for joining me on the show today. This has been a lot of fun, really interesting too. I really enjoyed the angle of jumping into cultural studies and really understanding differences and slowing down the listen in terms of how that impacts building relationships and culture and thinking about our own development as well as that of others. So this was a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you very much, James. I really appreciate the invite. I've really enjoyed our conversation. I think you had some fantastic questions that I've genuinely enjoyed exploring with you. And yeah, it's been likewise a lot of fun. And thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, of course. Let's do this again sometime.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely.

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James Mackey

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