The Breakthrough Hiring Show: Recruiting and Talent Acquisition Conversations

EP 186: Candidate and Employee Experience, Culture, and the Pros and Cons of Remote

• James Mackey: Recruiting, Talent Acquisition, Hiring, SaaS, Tech, Startups, growth-stage, RPO, James Mackey, Diversity and Inclusion, HR, Human Resources, business, Retention Strategies, Onboarding Process, Recruitment Metrics, Job Boards, Social Media Re

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Annie Andrews, VP of People at QGenda, shares how building a great culture starts with candidate experience and how to build culture for remote teams. She also shares what it's been like to grow from a Recruiting Coordinator to a VP of People role. 


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SPEAKER_02:

Thank you everyone for joining us today. Annie Andrews is on the show. Annie's currently in the role of VP of People, a QGEND, but really looking forward to just getting to know you as a person, Annie.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, James. Looking forward to be on the show today.

SPEAKER_02:

Just like putting the emphasis on getting to know you. And of course, like we can get into your position, what you're up to currently. But where are you from initially?

SPEAKER_00:

I'm from Atlanta. I've been born and raised here. I've tried to move away twice, but always find myself back. I currently live in the Atlanta suburbs with my husband and our two dogs. So we're just settled here for the long term.

SPEAKER_02:

Nice. Okay, cool, cool. So, two dogs, what kind of dogs do you have?

SPEAKER_00:

I have a 12-year-old black lab pit named Leo and a seven-year-old border collie, Aussie, Bernice mix.

unknown:

Nice.

SPEAKER_00:

All very high energy, and it's never a dull moment in our house.

SPEAKER_02:

You said one of them was just like staring at you in the doorway before we hit recording.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. He um that was Leo. He usually likes to just sleep in here, but I guess he knew something was happening, so he wanted to get out of the house.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. They they sort of have the sixth sense, do they? Don't they? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

They do.

SPEAKER_02:

So I opened an office for my company's go-to-market team in Rustin. So I'm in office full-time now. But when I was working from home, I have a French bulldog, and he's deaf. Like he can't even hear. And he has one eye. He's a happy, just to be clear, he's a very happy dog, but poor little guy, he's got one eye and he's deaf. But I swear, it's like he knew when I was about to get on to like an important call or something where I wanted it to be quiet in the background or where I couldn't lean down to pet him. And that's exactly what he would come over.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, that's our border colleague, Grace. He loves to look out my window. And usually he just sits there and stares. But as soon as he sees somebody walk by and I'm on a call, you can I can hear him growling, getting ready to bark, while the person that I'm talking to has no idea what's about to happen.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. And you were just talking about before we record is funny. It's like Zoom these days is really good about editing out background noise, but like our brains aren't necessarily still distracting for us. But it's it's even probably funnier because it's like people may not know why I look distracted when OB's coming up to me because they can't hear them, but I can.

SPEAKER_00:

So well, it's a great feature. I'm assuming that occurred post-COVID and kind of just updating that because all of us were most likely working from home, distracted by kids, pets. I know I was. So it's nice that whoever I'm speaking with doesn't really hear what's going on in the background, even though it's right here.

SPEAKER_02:

Chaos.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

So Annie, what were you like as a kid?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh man, I was a troublemaker, always bending, breaking rules, creating chaos for my parents. I tried to do my best in school, but I found myself always distracted by my peers or what else was going on versus my studies. I think I drove my parents a little bit crazy.

SPEAKER_02:

So you're really social?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, really social, making friends anywhere and everywhere. My mom, as she's describing how I was as a child, it was I didn't have any issues making friends or learning about people who I was playing with on the playground. I've noticed that has driven who I am as an adult. While I am a little bit more reserved these days, and I don't just automatically go say hi to somebody new. I'm still curious about people whenever they're in my environment, like close environment.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, yeah, yeah. Um, but definitely I think a lot of people that ultimately get into recruiting, they are definitely like people persons, right? Like they're social, they're typically you know empathetic and they're good listeners and these types of things, right? Um, not always.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Well, as I as I sometimes see myself as an unlicensed therapist because for some reason, and I have no issue with this. I like to listen when somebody has a problem that they want to solve or they just need a vent, but it seems that's how most people gravitate towards me or where most of my conversations seem to go with others.

SPEAKER_02:

Nice. So and you were like that as a kid?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So everybody would come to you and you would help them get through tricky situations or big feelings, stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, yeah. Sometimes they didn't want my advice, but I would happily give it.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. That's so that sounds like my daughter. She has an opinion, she definitely she has some some thoughts for sure.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's also a pre-warning that my husband has to give me when he's venting because he doesn't want a fix. He's just getting it out there. Yeah. But in my brain, I'm like, ha, okay, what can he do? What should he say? And that's not what he wants.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, you know, this actually seems to, it's coming up a lot lately on our shows, speaking with different town acquisition leaders. I think a lot of people that you know, when you get to that director VP level, uh particularly in the tech industry or highly competitive industry that somebody's in, it's it usually we're like really solutions focused and immediately diving into problem-solving mode.

SPEAKER_01:

Yep.

SPEAKER_02:

And I think it's interesting, it's like we're also in a business though where it's like very people-oriented, and we can't really optimize relationships and you can't optimize it for time either. And like listening is really important. So I think for a lot of us, it's like this balancing act of being this aggressive go-getter, constantly living in okay, we there's this gap between where we are, where we want to be, and we need to get after it. But then also, as you put it, right? Like being able to just sort of pause and listen, right?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, take a step back. I mean, I never saw myself in recruiting. I went to college for international affairs with an intention to go into international politics. That obviously did not happen. Um, and I found myself in recruiting. I worked as a front office coordinator for a very small recruiting agency in Atlanta, serving executive assistants and admin assistants across the city. Realized that I wanted to be a recruiter because of how they were helping people find new opportunities, better opportunities. But that wasn't the job where I really got my or cut my teeth in recruiting. I was unsatisfied with the answer that my former boss gave me of how it takes a really long time to be a recruiter. And so that's when I realized early on in my career that I needed to take charge of what I wanted to do as a profession. And all it just led to a conversation with now one of my mentors who took a chance on me to get me into recruiting and learning more about it. And it's kind of just spiraled upwards since then.

SPEAKER_02:

So your first ballster manager that said it took a really long time to get into recruiting. What was the rationale? What did they say it took so long to at that time?

SPEAKER_00:

I didn't really dig into it. The answer that I received was it just takes a really long time to be a recruiter. And I didn't want to press it because it was also the owner of the company. And I was just dissatisfied. I'm like, okay, well, what should I do then? And that reflect on what it was. But around the same time, I don't know if you're spiritual or the universe saying something, but my now mentor, former boss, he had reached out to me through LinkedIn with this opportunity. How could I say no?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. So what do you think makes a great recruiter?

SPEAKER_00:

Definitely someone who has good customer service, is responsive, and understands the role and the team well. They're not reading from a script, they're actually interested in learning about the candidate or the person that they're working through, the interview process with. It's difficult, but they don't shy away from those tough conversations. It's also what I expect of my recruiting team. They should never let a candidate go through the process without knowing how they're doing. If there's no update, tell the candidate that there's no update, but they're working on it instead of letting time go by. Because I think that just shows the candidate that they care and that they're trying the best that they can, even with as little information that they have.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. No update is still an update or like always overcommunicating.

SPEAKER_01:

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02:

I think with the hiring team as well, right? There's particularly in tech and high growth environments, sometimes hiring teams can have like a fair amount of anxiety over, particularly when you first kick off a role, like getting those early wins. Right. Which I think is every town acquisition leader's nightmare. It's like, okay, you just gotta give it like a little bit of time. We understand it needs to be done yesterday, but you know, we're on it. So it's that that over-communicating motion of just constantly updating and sharing data.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, that's where it's really important to have a relationship with the hiring manager or the hiring team and knowing who they are. Um, that way, as a recruiter, you go into a meeting with them, set the expectation early on of the fact that the candidates not just being interviewed by the team, but they're also interviewing the company and making sure that it's a mutual fit. And I just think if that expectation is set early on, it's easier to work through the process.

SPEAKER_02:

100%. I wanted to talk to you a little bit about just when you're starting out and uh studying international affairs. I'm curious, what was your favorite class? Just tell me about that experience. What did you love about it?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh man, that's tough. It was always my geography classes, anything around people and culture and learning about the world and how different it is from the US. And that has also shaped how I approach recruiting in the sense that everyone has different backgrounds, different experiences. And it's just taking time to learn a little bit more about that and what makes them happy. It was less about the politics. I guess I didn't really enjoy that much as I thought I would, but it's more, it's always been about the people.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, it's uh it sounds really interesting. And I'm wondering too, how much do you feel like what you studied in school influences how you think about people and recruiting and building companies today?

SPEAKER_00:

Again, it goes back to the people, how I learned about different cultures, histories, and religion, but we won't get into that. Um, and how that shapes a person in general. And taking that into how I approach recruiting and just understanding that the person in front of me has gone through something that I probably haven't gone through, or they've learned something that I haven't, and learning that from them. But also it's taught me to kind of put myself in their shoes. I've also been a candidate, you know. Um, I have interviewed at jobs or companies where I didn't get the role, but it always came down to how I felt about the interaction. And I don't want, I don't ever want a candidate to feel like they were ghosted or they didn't have the right or enough feedback or they had a really negative experience with the hiring team. It really just comes down to like relationships and building that throughout the time that I have with that other person.

SPEAKER_02:

So, how do you get your team when you're hiring at a larger level of scale, right? To really focus and maintain relationships while there's also has to be an emphasis on systems, right? How do you strike that balance and keep that really human element in place and strong candidate experience?

SPEAKER_00:

That's a great question. Um, well, again, I was just like setting expectations with the team on what my expectations were in the fact that they should be offering a high level of customer service to whoever they're working with. It's not just the external person, it's also the internal team. We have internal and external customers. We've we have to understand what's going on at all times. But it is a high-pace environment or fast-pace environment, if you call it. We're continuously hiring throughout the year. And thankfully, we have greenhouse to keep us organized, um, where it keeps all of the recruiters kind of on top of where they are with each role that they own. And so I haven't had much of an issue over the time that I've been here with recruiters not getting back to their teams. Of course, there are slip-ups. Not everybody's perfect. We all do get very busy. And it's just that friendly reminder like, hey, don't forget, let's follow up with this person.

SPEAKER_02:

It seems like almost more than um systems, too, just like every other world we hire for hiring the right recruiters that have that top of mind that seem to really care and have maybe a high level of empathy and understanding and accountability too, right? It's not only just caring about people's experience, but it's also just like that performance mindset and self-accountability to deliver and and you know, over-communicate and all these types of things, right? I mean, how do you think about that when you look at hiring recruiters? Like, how do you evaluate or what are you looking for?

SPEAKER_00:

So you kind of just mentioned it accountability. It's one of the values that I have as a person, a leader, and my expectation of all of my team members is to really own up to their responsibilities and their mistakes. And it's also what I look for when I'm hiring because I know nobody's perfect. I have also found myself in a position that I've almost lost my role for it. But it's understanding like, did they take accountability? What did they learn from it? And have they actually incorporated that into their habits? But also integrity, you know, I don't think anybody likes to be lied to, but it goes back to accountability is like being honest when it happens. Like it's okay to make mistakes, it's figuring out how you move on from it, being open and honest about it.

SPEAKER_02:

How do you create a culture where your team feels comfortable? I mean, it's it's again, it's a lot of tiring the right people that just hopefully there's like this innate hopefully comfort or they have enough experience or whatever to open up in that way. But I'm just wondering as a leader, how you think about creating that type of environment.

SPEAKER_00:

For me, it's coming with a sense of vulnerability, is having the same mindset, showing my team, especially when I made the mistake and saying that openly or sharing a story from a past or one of my past roles where I made a mistake and what happened. And usually it encourages my team to open up when something like that happens. I do find myself kind of just repeating, like, it's okay, share with me what's going on. And I think that comes back to just being that therapist for folks and kind of just giving that space to like open up.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I think so. It's um making sure that you also investing time in the one-on-one relationships with every person on your team. Is that oh, absolutely?

SPEAKER_00:

Not just learning about, you know, what their strengths and weaknesses are as a professional, but it's also learning about the person, what makes them tick, what do they do outside of work? What do they care about? Because work makes money, but it's not everything. And it's important to get that holistic sense of who they are as an individual.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. So speaking of which, I would be curious to learn more about maybe some of the most impactful personal experiences that you've had that you feel like influence how you work with people today and how you think about hiring. Is there anything that really stands out throughout your life as something that's been really impactful and how you operate today as a leader?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, that's tough. I know we talked about this before. Um, and I've had some reflection to do. It's still really difficult to figure out what those moments were. One that sticks out, especially on how I approach hiring, is just when I was laid off from one trust and had to find another opportunity quickly, despite seeing myself at that company for a really long time and applying to roles, going through the interview process all the way to the final interview, only to find out that I didn't get the opportunity. And along the way, actually, I was ghosted so many times, and that hurt. And so I never want anyone to feel, especially if they're coming to interview at this company, that they're not getting what they need. Again, nobody's perfect. We do get quite a few applications, and I only have a very small team of three going through each application to fill the roles that are open. But for whoever's in process, I'm hopeful that they're getting a positive experience with the recruiters.

SPEAKER_02:

So when you were going through that job transition and so things didn't work out at one trust, and you were actively interviewing and going through the ups and downs of how challenging that can be, um how did you navigate that? That's something that a lot of people are going through, these like layoffs and job transitions, probably now more than ever, the last five years have been, I think a lot of people would define as sort of crazy in the job market, uh, particularly within tech. So, how did you stay on top of your psychology and go through the ups and downs and disappointments and really stay focused? I mean, what was your process for navigating that?

SPEAKER_00:

Good question. Um, thankfully, I had a good support system, my husband, but also kind of just staying active at the gym, being outside. It was during summertime. So it was also a good time to just reset and take a step back to understand what I was looking for in the next company that I joined. Thankfully, we did have quite a few summer plans that kept my mind off of the difficulties that I was having throughout interviewing until getting the opportunity that I'm now at with QGENDF.

SPEAKER_02:

Where did you get to travel?

SPEAKER_00:

We went up to Washington, DC. For 4th of July. Went to 30A with my mom. It's an annual trip. Where else do we go?

SPEAKER_02:

You said 30A?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, so Destin, Miramar in Florida.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

If you haven't been, I highly recommend it.

SPEAKER_02:

What's it like?

SPEAKER_00:

It is like turquoise waters, really peaceful, although it's gotten more popular over the years. So you're gonna run into multiple crowds. But even during the off season, it's just relaxing. We always get a condo on the beach or facing the beach where we can open the balcony to hear the water. And it just, I don't know, it's like the best place on earth.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, so look, I you know, I'm excited to learn also just more about what you're building now at QDenda. You're in this role now where you have made it to a VP of people, as far as I understand, overseeing talent acquisition and people ops, is that right? Yes. Okay, cool. What is your team looking to accomplish over the next year? And just it'd be cool to understand what those goals are. And then we can also talk about your own professional development and personal development and how you plan on accomplishing those goals. I'd love to have that conversation.

SPEAKER_00:

Kind of what we're working on right now, specifically, is a core values refresh. We've had our core values for quite some time, figuring out if those values still suit where we are as an organization. So we're still early on in the process. We're gonna go into focus groups with employees across the organization to get their perspective, but also getting leadership perspective as well and marrying those two together. But the other one is just figuring out how we can help support re-energizing QGENDA's culture. Post-COVID, it's been challenging to manage an employee base that's remote and in office here in Atlanta. And then we have the additional challenge of the company that we acquired last year, who's based in Ohio, and kind of making sure that they're integrated into our culture, but understanding what motivates employees outside of compensation. Everyone wants to be paid well, I get it. But how do we foster better team collaboration to solve problems that can move the business forward? So that's what we're working on.

SPEAKER_02:

So specifically collaboration in a largely remote culture, that's challenging. And you know what's interesting is so I opened an office recently specifically to build a go-to-market team for my company. And the rest of my company is remote. And it's been fascinating to see really just how much faster we've been able to move and how much easier it is to collaborate being in person. And it's sort of I've kind of gone like full circle on remote, where at first I was all about it. I was like, Oh, we don't need to meet.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, well, there are pros and cons, right? Right to everything. And having a remote workforce, it builds a door where you're able to access more talent. However, it is very difficult to get those employees feeling connected to the culture when they're not in person.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And that is something that we're recognizing. I don't think we're the only company going through these challenges at all, but it is easier to collaborate in person because everyone's just right there. If you have a whiteboard, you can have a full discussion, write things out. You're also able to read like how people are feeling versus being on Zoom.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. How do you help people become more connected when they're remote? What does that really look like? Because it's it is it's really challenging, right?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, no, it definitely is. So currently, we offer monthly and quarterly events that invite remote employees to join virtually through learning about like whatever our culture vibe patrol has planned for the month in learning about MLK, Black History Month, or some type of heritage month. But also we have gosh, what else have we done? We've done a holiday event for our remote employees, actually, where we invited all of the company to join. We had dueling pianos and trivia. A lot of people were engaged. It was fun. It's always a hit. Um, but then we also have two events for our sales or go-to-market team and our prod dev team, where they have an annual summit that allows remote employees to come here in person as well. So there are different opportunities that we try to keep our remote folks engaged. It's not perfect, um, but we're still working through how to make that better.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, yeah, and it's great that you do essentially an annual event where all of your remote team does come in person. So, I mean, I think that that's really important too, right? Like doing an off-site or having some kind of annual event with whether it's an SKO or something uh that pulls everybody together.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. I mean, SKO is going on right now. It's the second day.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Uh, where our sales marketing and marketing team are together to look forward to this year and how do we improve from the last?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, for sure. Um, that that is uh in Atlanta.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

Are you basically it is how big is the team in Atlanta?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh gosh. Uh probably about 425.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, that's a fair amount. And then um remotely.

SPEAKER_00:

Remotely, about half of that as well. Actually, take it back. We have over 500 employees here in Atlanta. Some about 425 come into the office on any week within any week. And then we have some Atlanta remote folks that live near the office, but they're on a team that doesn't really require it.

SPEAKER_01:

Got it.

SPEAKER_00:

But then the other third of the company is fully remote.

SPEAKER_02:

So that's actually what I was gonna ask you is how does your team determine whether or not when you're opening new roles, whether or not it should be in Atlanta or remote?

SPEAKER_00:

So previously it really depended on the team and what their needs were. However, coming into this year, we have adopted more of an Atlanta first mindset where we want people here in Atlanta. So the only times that we'll go remote from this point forward is if it's a role that is extremely hard to fill, like a development role or an example, where the team should have exhausted and the very diverse talent pool here in Atlanta first before considering going externally. And that's where we had the conversation about it. Yeah. But previously, it was really any team that had remote folks and figuring out like if it did make sense for them to be remote.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah, it makes sense. And so it's primarily, would you say, more so on the engineering side?

SPEAKER_00:

Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, okay, cool. What about international? Like what any presence there?

SPEAKER_00:

Or no, we are just here in the US.

SPEAKER_02:

That makes things a little easier, I guess, right?

SPEAKER_00:

It does. I have hired internationally, and it's always fun um to learn about different employment laws.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, well, I guess now it's a little easier. They have like deal and some of these other, but I guess when you're getting to around company size that uh you're at right now, I don't know if you can still leverage companies like Deal or if that's more of an SMB or a smaller SMB solution. I'm assuming it just gets more complicated the bigger the company gets, right?

SPEAKER_00:

It does, but it's always a good challenge to have. I don't think we've really had any issue of finding good talent here in Atlanta either.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, that's good. That's great. That's also one of the reasons it's like the employer branding candidate experience is so important for working like within one market. Yeah. Particularly if it's one market. I mean, even if it's not, but you know, you really want to have strong relationships with the market and even with the candidates you may not hire initially. You might want to circle back or they might know people. It's just like it's a small world's always smaller than we think when it comes to creating good experiences.

SPEAKER_00:

No, uh, very, very true. Even when I was navigating through my own job transition, I leveraged my network quite a bit. And it also made me realize how important it is to invest in certain relationships because you never know who they're gonna know or who you're gonna run into that knows them. And it also kind of goes into making sure that we're providing a good experience to whoever's interested in the company because they might be more willing to refer somebody that's a better fit if they've accepted another opportunity or they know somebody again that just might be more qualified.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah, I think so. I think you're doing it right when it's uh you know, even Glassdoor these days, you can people can leave reviews for the quality of the interview process, even if they're not hired, right?

SPEAKER_00:

Um yeah, and I will have to say, like it used to be the bane of my existence, Glassdoor. Oh, yeah. Especially because most people who are likely to leave reviews are the ones who have had a negative experience. Seriously, and it's less likely for positive reviews unless they're encouraged to, and at that point, it almost doesn't feel genuine.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So I try to ignore them unless there's something that is glaring that needs to be addressed. And it usually is, especially within here.

SPEAKER_02:

So your team, you don't ask employees to leave glass door reviews because you feel like if you ask, then it excuse it or what I feel like it does.

SPEAKER_00:

It is important. Uh while, yes, I would encourage employees if they're having a positive experience here at QGenda to leave a review, but we're not going to push it constantly where it feels disgenuine.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, for sure. So it has to be done in a like a tasteful way. Um, I think it's interesting. One way that I've I've thought about doing, I've implemented this uh before at companies is to have it somewhere like in the employee lifecycle, the onboarding life cycle, it can be three months is like the absolute earliest, but even at a 12 months check-in or a six months check-in or something where it's like a timing trigger where after a certain period of time, something is sent out like, hey, we'd love to hear from you.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, so we actually have that here. We we implemented LeapSum two years ago as our primary survey tool to get a feel for how employees are feeling within their journey at the company. So the earliest survey that they receive is an onboarding survey that's sent 30 days after they've started with a company. And then again at 12 months to see how their first year has gone. But then there are two times per year where we do a poll survey to get a good idea of how our entire employee base is feeling. We actually just did one at the end of December. Probably a terrible time to do it because most people are trying to wrap up for the rest of the year or they're already on holiday vacation, but it still gave us a good insight because we launched the first poll survey at the beginning of the year, and it was a good picture to build on where we ended.

SPEAKER_02:

So at this point, right, you've been in the VP of people role for QGenda, and I think you've been there for what, I think like close to was it three years or four years?

SPEAKER_00:

So I'm coming up on four years this August with QGenda. I've realistically only been in the VP of people role since the end of June of last year. Oh, okay, cool. And it has been a fun journey. Nice um because I seem to find myself in positions where I have to learn very quickly and be able to execute. For sure. Um at that time. Well, like which role did you were you in before that and then so I've had um I've had essentially three roles since joining QGenda. It seems I've done something every single year. I joined as the director of talent acquisition until our HR director left and I spoke with our chief people officer through a career conversation of telling her where I saw myself in 10 years, which was in a role similar to hers, chief people officer. And being the director of people in talent, where I oversaw recruiting still, but also our HR business partner team, it gave me an opportunity to really dig into the employee experience lifecycle for the company, from how we're hiring to when somebody leaves and understanding how that person felt as they were leaving and why. And then I'm grateful for the opportunity. Um, but when our chief people officer left, they promoted me to this role. And it's been a fun journey since then.

SPEAKER_02:

So when you're looking at your future and who you want to become professionally and as a leader, what are you focusing on right now? Like what how are you focusing on growing and continue to improve?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So for me right now, it's learning about the areas that I don't have a lot of experience or knowledge in, which is total rewards. So learning about compensation, learning about benefits, um, and how to shape that for employees, but also making sure that it makes sense for the company. Everything that I'm working on right now is juggling between the employee experience and making sure that it makes sense for the business, which is incredibly tough.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, but also just as a leader and as a person, what I'm working on is speaking up more. I realize when I'm in situations or rooms where I'm unfamiliar with the topic or the people in the room in general, I'm usually more reserved and quiet. It's often noticed or it has been brought up to me in the past. And what I'm working on is kind of gathering my thoughts quicker so that I'm able to speak up in the room.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And that I don't understand why, but that's always been really tough for me. And so because I know that's tough for me, I know that might be tough for some people on my team who, whenever we're in the room together, they're less likely to say something. So it's making that conscious effort to call them out and to get them to open up because everyone has an opinion or perspective on something. They might have a great idea. Why not hear it?

SPEAKER_02:

Sure. So for your own development, getting more comfortable speaking up in different situations, environments, and different rooms, right? Curious, how do you go about doing it? Is it really just about making a conscious effort? Like, okay, I'm gonna get into this meeting and I'm gonna say something, like I'm gonna find a way to. I mean, how how do you approach that? Because I you're right. I think that that's very that's very normal, right? Um, you know, sometimes it's uh particularly if it's a new environment, for instance, or it's again people that you may not know as well. Do you is there something you do to sort of like psychologically pump yourself up, or what do you do?

SPEAKER_00:

Um well, professionally, I just try to find out what the agenda is, what we're talking about. Is it something that I'm intimately familiar with or need to get familiar with? But then also before that meeting, I'm always listening to some type of EDM music to like pump myself up and get myself in the mood to chat.

SPEAKER_02:

Nice, okay, cool, cool. Okay, so any uh EDM music recommendations?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh man, right now it's kind of just going back to it feels like 2014, 2015, like Alesso, Blau, Above and Beyond. All right, and like some good house music too. So like Cascade, Cascade, Cascade.

SPEAKER_02:

Is that the one that did um what was it? Didn't I'm trying to remember that rings a bell, but I can't remember. I feel like if I looked it up, I could find I could remember the songs. That's some big songs, right? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, EDM is solid. Also, what I like about EDM is that it's not like negative, you know, it's like just so happy.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's all about positive vibes, like loving everybody, and it's just another type of culture that is feel good, yeah. Knowing everybody's totally different, but everyone's also there for a good time.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Edium just makes me think of like dancing on a beach or something.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02:

Right, yeah, that's awesome. It's like a good, like, pump me up. That's um, that's a good takeaway.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Um, okay, cool. So it sounds like you're in this chapter now where it's you've advanced a ton professionally. You're also you're still looking at this, it's almost like this professional and personal growth, putting yourself out there, right? Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I'm also now in a position. I'm sorry to interrupt. Um, now I'm in a position where a lot of people look at me to make decisions. And so I have to be confident in what I'm saying. And that's sometimes scary to think about.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, of course. Yeah. Particularly um when you feel like you're coming in as a leader too, and and you want to lead by example for your team, right?

SPEAKER_00:

Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. But I think the cool thing is just being able to be open about it, right? Because chances are they're feeling the same way. Or a lot of people are. So I think two, it's like it's okay. I would say it's okay when people see that, right? Because it's like it's very human and it's relatable. I think I don't know. I think one thing that like as a leader, like I've learned to be more comfortable sharing things with my team, like areas for improvement that I'm working on, things that I struggle with. I feel like maybe earlier in my career when I was less experienced, I really tried to put up this. I don't want to say a facade because I was genuine. It's just like it wasn't maybe sharing the full picture of who I was, but ultimately. What that ended up doing is it kind of put a barrier between me and other people where I didn't have the same type of relationships that I have now, which feel a lot closer, like in different areas of my life, too. It's not even professionally. And I've noticed that that actually has led to me being like a much better leader. And frankly, when it comes to people making, you even like talk about decision making, a lot more collaborative and able to relate and understand other people and like really get their perspective, right? So it's like I think to an extent, like being vulnerable and transparent about you know things that we're working on, right? Like it actually helps us be better leaders.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Even I mean, I lean on my team who used to be my peers for their expertise in the areas that I'm unfamiliar familiar with so that they can teach me something. That's where I am as a leader. Is like, how do I keep learning? And thankfully, like I'm very privileged to have a great team who can do that and also share perspectives that I might not have thought of originally or seen it from that way.

SPEAKER_02:

Has learning how to delegate, do you feel like that's been a learning curve or a shift?

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. Yes, absolutely. Even before stepping into this position, I've always been the type of person to get things done and done quickly so that I can move on to the next thing. I can't do that in this role. I can't manage everything, have the answer for everything, do everything for everyone. So learning to delegate has been um has definitely been an experience where, or just a habit that I've been building in general is like really leaning in where somebody else can take ownership and take also take the credit for it. So that way it frees up my time to think about the bigger picture. What I also don't want to happen, it's that delicate balance of delegation, right? Um, not overloading the team with everything that they have to be responsible for too. But also I don't want them to feel like they can't say no if they're overloaded. And so for me, it's always asking the question, like, hey, do you have the bandwidth? Because I need help with X.

SPEAKER_02:

I feel like that's part of also building the culture, you know, making sure people feel comfortable admitting mistakes or asking for help or saying no. It's again, it's that getting back to even what you said, like you're working on it's like continuously, maybe there's like this sense of connection and vulnerability and sharing like where we're at in our professional journeys and creating that environment. And it sounds like it's really important to you to lead by example there because that's what allows other people to feel comfortable being able to say no to you, for instance, right?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Although I feel like I have a team of very high performers who are always willing to take new things on. So sometimes like I'm a little bit more clinical on when I ask for help or if I can just get something done because they're most likely to say yes.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, yeah, there's that too. It's um, it's like I've I've definitely had situations where I, you know, you ask somebody if they have bandwidth and they even despite my best efforts to create a culture where people can say no, it's um sometimes a lot of people just they don't like saying no to the boss, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

You always it's like having your own kind of pulse check on the situation.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Kind of asking additional questions to uncover, right?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, the other thing that I've tried doing that is somewhat working is just asking for volunteers, like in a group setting, whenever I'm having a team meeting of I'm working on this, but really need somebody to take ownership of this. And somebody usually raises their hand.

SPEAKER_02:

Hopefully.

SPEAKER_00:

Hopefully, yes. Actually, most of the time, yes. Um, it's very rare that I have to tell somebody to do something. But no, it it it's um it's a learning process. There are times where it's very difficult for me to let go because it's something that I've built and I feel like I need to be involved in just about everything, and that's not always feasible. I mean, nobody likes a micromanager either. So I try to give everyone on my team enough space to take accountability for their role within the organization, what they should be doing, but then asking for help when they need it. It seems to be going well, kind of.

SPEAKER_02:

There you go. Well, hey, look, I also wanted to talk to you a little bit about how your definition of success has evolved over the years since and now you're in a VP role versus when you're starting out. Um, what do you think's changed?

SPEAKER_00:

Not much. It's still the same, making as much money as I can.

SPEAKER_02:

Fair enough.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, I think it's because I'm also a Capricorn. If you believe in zodiacs, it's just natural for me to have a hard work ethic. But I think that just comes from my actual background, how I was raised, and how I saw my parents. But it's always my version of success is how do I get to the top? And I'm not quite there yet. I'm just getting started.

SPEAKER_02:

There you go. What does the top look like for you?

SPEAKER_00:

Chief people officer of a company. I made that clear to my boss previously, and it is still the track that I want to be on.

SPEAKER_02:

Seems like you're on the right track. Well on your way.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm getting there.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. So now that you're in your prime, you've accomplished a lot. Final part of our episode today. What advice do you have for people earlier in their journey, starting out and recruiting or people ops that you can share with them to help them get to where you are?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh man. Speaking up, talking with their manager about how they want to grow their career. And if they're unsatisfied with the answer, do some reflection themselves, figuring out what they might be missing or pushing for more feedback. The other thing is to really build adaptability and resilience. The world is constantly changing. Their company and processes will always change, but it's how they show up the next day after that change happens. And it's usually out of their control. They can either adopt a negative attitude about it and then their work suffers, or they can accept what just happens, learn what's new, and then move on. Because at the end of the day, it's how they show up at work, making sure that they're doing well, getting things done, and then figuring out what do they want to do next. And it could be at the company that they're at, or it could be at another company.

SPEAKER_02:

I love it. Well, Annie, this has been really insightful. I know that everyone tuning in can learn a lot from you and your progression and what you've been doing over the last several years and the relatable experiences and growth curves that you've gone through throughout your career. So thank you very much for joining me today on the show.

SPEAKER_00:

Thank you for having me. It's been a really fun experience. So I appreciate the invite.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, it has.

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James Mackey

Host