EP 200: What Most TA Leaders Get Wrong About Influence

Gabrielle Mellon grew up in a big, competitive family that shaped her instinct to act, adapt, and figure things out fast. She carried that mindset into bold career moves and high-stakes roles, eventually leading Talent Acquisition and HR Operations at Axon through a period of rapid growth. In this conversation, she tackles what most leaders avoid: why being liked can hold you back, how to be direct without losing trust, and what it really means to develop people.

Connect with host James Mackey on LinkedIn! 

Thank you to our sponsor, SecureVision, for making this show possible! 

 
Follow us:
https://www.linkedin.com/company/82436841/

SecureVision: #1 Rated Embedded Recruitment Firm on G2!
https://www.g2.com/products/securevision/reviews

Thanks for listening!

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:46

Hello, everyone. Welcome to the show today. We have Gabrielle Mellon with us. Gabrielle is currently in the role of SVP of talent acquisition and HR operations at Axon. Gabrielle, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_02 0:59

Well, thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

Yeah, yeah. Looking forward to today's conversation. And it's already been great getting to know you on a prep call and then before we we hit record today. So yeah, let's just jump into it. Where are you from?

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Originally, I am from a very small little town in the Pacific Northwest called Yakima, Washington. I know you and I were kind of making some jokes earlier today. Uh Palm Springs of Washington is uh affectionately known and kind of in a small circle of human beings uh here in Washington.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

Nice, nice. Yeah, I think you said it was a pretty small town. Uh that you're not sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

Yeah, right. When I was growing, yeah, when I was growing up, it was uh my husband and I have arguments about this, by the way. So he grew up in what he feels is a very small town of uh he he he grew up in Oregon. So he was like, my small town was under 10,000. And at the time I was growing up, Yakima is around 30,000. So he he he believes that doesn't count. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:55

But but but I'm toddling like you know the outer areas of of the So it depends how you measure it.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

Exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 2:03

But you gotta find out how to like make the data work in your favor there.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

Uh I defin I definitely like making the data work in my favor. So um, but no, I mean it was it was it was super cool growing up there. Um I I had the opportunity to uh have a really high degree of independence. Um my parents uh you know had my curfew and was very safe and everything like that. But um my parents knew all of the other parents. They, you know, somehow or another, you know, our families were connected in some way, shape, or form. Um, so I I got to, you know, drive around and be with my friends a lot and go out and into the community, lots of sports. And um I think because of that, uh being you know out and about from such such an early age, it it really did develop a really strong sense of uh personal independence. Um and I do think that that's rooted from from that small town kind of feel.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

Yeah, it sounds like it. And you also had a pretty big family, right?

SPEAKER_01 2:59

I have a huge family, yeah. Um my mom's one of seven, her mother is one of 13. Um, and then on my dad's side, it's like another five and another seven, another uh whatnot. So yeah, so uh, you know, we've we have a ton of like really fun traditions. We've got cousin campa, we've got family Olympics, and then we've got giant uh Christmas Eves and Thanksgivings. And so uh growing up, I didn't understand until I was about eight years old that Thanksgivings were not happening in a hall situation with about 10 turkeys and tables and tables and tables of food. I thought everybody that was everybody's norm. And so when uh you know one of the little girls in my class asked me, like, whose house am I going to? I thought she was just crazy. Like, how are you gonna fit all of the people for Thanksgiving?

SPEAKER_00 3:46

How are hundreds of people gonna get in a house?

SPEAKER_01 3:49

Like, how does that we averaged about 125 people for Thanksgiving? So, and that's that was normal. My husband, my husband, he came to Thanksgiving. Uh he was a very brave human being. The first year we dated, he came to uh a Thanksgiving and he thought I was crazy. He's like, No, there's no way that you know these people. That you you cannot stand here and say that you know two facts about every single person in this room. I was like, Yep.

SPEAKER_00 4:14

That's impressive. Yeah, and uh I I gotta ask, you said your family does family Olympics. That sounds really fun. I'm curious, like how competitive and intense does it get?

SPEAKER_01 4:27

Uh very so that happens that happens during cousin camp out, every family, and you have to bring a different game every single year. So you it's it becomes very creative. Really?

SPEAKER_00 4:37

So you don't have the repeat consistency?

SPEAKER_01 4:40

No, you can't be repeating, James. I like no, no.

SPEAKER_00 4:42

This is like kind of fun though, because you get in second one year, you have like the opportunity to come back and place gold.

SPEAKER_01 4:48

No, yeah, well, um, and this, you know, probably it, you know, I'll I'll I'll be I'll be appropriate, but the the gold prize is is uh I believe what was it? It was a Miller light, uh gold, like the what's the gold can beer? I I don't I'm not sure I don't remember, but yeah, the my might it's like a Miller, like one of those, uh like yeah, and then a silver bud light was the silver place, but you know, can around for the Family Olympic. Miller Light Gold, I think it's just called maybe that was it, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:17

Yeah, yeah, that's that's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

I love so everybody was competing for the gold beer, yeah. Right. Uh yeah, no, I mean the there was a lot of family pride on not bringing bringing repeats, and the way that it actually worked out is there were usually three generations that come to this. And so uh there was the the grandparents, so my grandparents, my mother's generation, and then my generation. And so my mother's generation was the biggest because of how big everybody was, and so my generation would get paired up with the grandparents' generation, and then we would compete against the middle generation, and so it got very competitive. Um, so I learned from an early age to just you know hook up with my uh with my grandparents and just like just get after my mom and dad.

SPEAKER_00 6:04

Yeah, that sounds like so many good memories. Yeah, do any games stand out?

SPEAKER_01 6:10

Yeah, I'm sure you guys have seen it before. It's you know, the uh grapefruit down the pantyhose.

SPEAKER_00 6:16

No. Oh god. Actually, it sounds it sounds okay. So tell me more about this.

SPEAKER_01 6:22

Okay, so you take a pair of pantyhose, you put a grapefruit in one leg, uh-huh, and you take the other leg and you tie it around your waist, and the great the leg hangs.

SPEAKER_00 6:30

Okay, yeah, I don't know what this game is.

SPEAKER_01 6:33

Okay, so you take the a second grapefruit and you put it on the ground, and maybe like three feet you draw a line in the dirt, and then two teams stand next to one another, and you swing like a pendulum, the uh the grapefruit hanging from your waist, and you knock the other grapefruit from one line over to the next line. And whoever can do that the fastest gets the gold beer.

SPEAKER_00 6:54

Wow, that is that's super that, yeah. That's creative. That's awesome. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:59

Uh I don't know. There's a lot of lot of shenanigans.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

Yeah, oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:03

Maybe maybe it also taught me to be very creative and problem solving.

SPEAKER_00 7:08

It's like the number one contributing factor to like creative leadership is like swinging the grapefruit. I guess you know there's a lesson in there. There's a lesson in there if you look hard enough.

SPEAKER_03 7:17

There is, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:19

So you also like you were into a lot of sports uh growing up too, right? You're quite the athlete.

SPEAKER_01 7:25

Uh I played Uran sports um growing up. So from the time that I was uh a willing and able, um, I don't think uh and if my mother was standing right here, she'd say this right right now. Like my mom was not a very athletic, you know, my dad's the my dad's the uh the uh the athlete parent. And so when I got to the age of being able, so it was about sixth grade, I was in every single sport I could possibly be in. Um so it was, you know, soccer, softball, track, cross country, um, and anything and everything. Um, but I got really, really good at softball. Um and it was it was more so because I was pretty fearless. I was not afraid of laying out and using my body to stop the ball. And it's like I had pretty good eye hate like eye coordination where I could track it. And so my sp my spots were center field and shortstop. And so I could track a ball coming really, really, really easily into center field. And if I'm I'm not very tall, I'm like five four. So if I knew I wasn't gonna get it, I and I'm pretty quick, I could leap and lay out. And and I honestly, like most of the times I could actually catch it. So um, so that was usually that that was kind of like my the the standout thing is I could I could track the ball pretty well. Um and I get really, really upset when it would get by me. So yeah, they very rarely got by me.

SPEAKER_00 8:44

Yeah. So you were pretty competitive from the start.

SPEAKER_01 8:47

Very competitive.

SPEAKER_00 8:48

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:49

Did you uh did you end up playing uh sports in college or well, I did a little bit of softball and then realized that um, you know, not much comes after that for women.

SPEAKER_03 9:01

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 9:01

And so it's when it was one of those things where uh I had a couple opportunities even before me, even when I was making choices about where to go to school. Um, there were I had some different scholarship opportunities, and it was it was truly one of those things where I knew I wasn't good enough to play in the Olympics. That was really the only other thing that came for women after ball or after college ball. And I was very professionally ambitious and minded, and I knew I didn't want to spend five or six years in college, and so I was like, well, I gotta be practical here. Um and I was paying for school myself. So it was one of those things like I don't want to be here forever, I gotta, I gotta buckle down and go.

SPEAKER_00 9:39

So yeah, well, you said that like you kind of uh culture, like community and family uh was like it sounds like um big emphasis on hard work. Um it's like personal accountability or taking charge was like sort of a takeaway from the I don't know if you'd phrase it like that, but what you were saying in terms of you were making pretty big decisions early on. Um and a lot of it was like self-guided, right? Like when you by the time you were deciding decisions like around college and whatnot, is that right?

SPEAKER_01 10:06

Yeah, you know, my um I think again, kind of like we were, you know, growing up in that small town, like uh it's it's an agricultural-based city. And so, you know, my grandparents were in refineries and cuneries, uh, orchards. My father, my grandfather was a mechanic. Um, my grandmother, my mom, uh, she was in, you know, accounts payables and billings for a medical clinic. My father, you know, was in lumber and construction. Everybody just worked really hard, like really, really, really hard. And so when I was little, um, you know, college was never a choice. Um, my parents were always like, you are going to school, like that, like college, like you are that that is happening. Um, but outside of it is happening, because I think the family weren't necessarily used to making kind of decisions about college or and and this is well before the time with paper brochures were still coming in the mail telling you about schools, right? Like you weren't given the opportunity to do the research on like, well, what kind of degrees can you get? Or, you know, what does that set you up for the future of when you graduate? What professional line can you go in after this? Or, and this was before you were taking, you know, tests that my kids take now of, oh, well, you're, you know, your personality suit you to do X, Y, and Z in a profession. And so I think outside of instilling, you are going to do this, I was kind of left to my own devices to figure out what and how. And so I started applying to schools, and I got into um, I got into the schools and then I narrowed it down to two. And one was Boston College and one was University of Washington.

SPEAKER_00 11:45

Two good schools?

SPEAKER_01 11:46

Two different schools, East Coast, West Coast, right? Um, and I pretty high kind of had my heart set on Boston College. It was an adventure, it was East Coast, and again, very different kind of day and time at that, you know, then like you don't you didn't do college visits. Um, you were making a decision based off of what very little website there was at the time and the brochures that you had. And for me, it was also making your financial decision. I was the one that was um putting myself through school. I was the one that was kind of thinking about how am I gonna do this. And my mom, she uh she kind of took me aside as I was making that final decision, and she said, you know, it's a long way away. UW it's two and a half hours away. She was like, that first time that you get sick, I think you're really gonna be disappointed that you're on the East Coast. And we just talked, I have a really, really tight family. She's like, you know, you're not gonna be able to fly home for Thanksgiving. You're not gonna need like you'll probably be able to come home once a year. Um, she's like, we're just we're not gonna see you. She's like, you really need to think about that. It's like, I don't, I you need to make this decision, but you really need to think about the the family element of it. And she's you know, in hindsight, I remember being kind of upset with her that she that she did that. And at the same time, um, she wasn't wrong. Um, I'm I'm extremely close with my family. I'm extremely close with my parents. And I remember begrudgingly deciding to go to UW. And um, it was far less expensive. It was much, much closer. And the interesting thing is, is uh, you know, you and I were talking about the the why intersection of that decision. Um by making that decision, by going to the University of Washington, I just met this incredible circle of human beings that shaped my adult life. And and ultimately um met my husband, my senior year of college. Um, and I have my three incredible teenage children now as a byproduct of that. And I think about that one single choice. If I had gone to the East Coast, I wouldn't have the family I have now, I wouldn't have the career I have now, I wouldn't have the incredible people in my life that I have right now. And so I I honestly have to think, I well, my mom knew something. I clearly did not at that moment in time.

SPEAKER_00 14:12

I hear you. I hear you. And you ended up uh studying was like um political communication, is that right?

SPEAKER_02 14:19

I did. That's cool.

Political Communication And Campaign Reality

SPEAKER_00 14:20

That's uh so that's like a little different than I guess political science, right? Um maybe there's some crossover there. So what did like what were the examples some of the classes for political communication? I mean, which is just kind of cool.

SPEAKER_01 14:33

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I mean, um, I mean, polypsy were some of the classes, um, but comms, right? So it was every some of it was like again, government classes and then the the main communication classes. Um, I loved the communication classes. So I had some of the best communication professors. One of them actually sponsored me for an internship down in Los Angeles, uh, working at Warner Brothers. Um Crispin Thurlow, how did I actually still remember his name? He was just such an incredible professor. And he was my senior year communication advisor. Um and it was he he just really had such a strong impact on, and it's funny, it's funny actually just thinking about that. One person can have such a fun impact on your uh the way you think about things. Um, anyway, so um no, so the reason I went into political communication is I actually thought I wanted to run campaigns. Um, I was really fascinated with politics at the time. And when I was a freshman in college, I got involved with student government. Um, I ended up working on Al Gore's uh presidential campaign. He lost. Um so four years later, uh actually it was two and a half, three years later when the the next campaign started back up. I actually intentionally worked for George W. Bush's campaign because I wanted to actually have the experience of a red campaign and a blue campaign and actually understand and cross from here.

SPEAKER_03 16:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

Um and in Washington, being a blue state, seeing how a red campaign is run was really, really, really fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 16:11

Let's hear about that. So, what was it like? That must have been like a really fascinating experience. That's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 16:17

Well, so they didn't want to spend any money in a red in a blue state, right? And so I think the mental mindset was like, okay, well, I'm I'm not, I'm just gonna lose it. So why do I want to spend like really important campaign dollars? Well, the the interesting thing that I was actually just saying about growing up in the Palm Springs of Washington and an agriculture side, Washington's kind of like really pretty split uh politically when you think about it. Um, the Seattle side is very blue and the Eastern Washington side is actually pretty red. And so um actually being able to chat with the campaign team and be able to advocate for even some of my family members and say, hey, like, no, like there's you know, there's there's still a lot of human beings, and it wasn't just my voice, by the way, right? That I don't want to package it that way, but being able to kind of talk from a uh the younger kind of voter perspective that um, hey, like there are on the eastern side of it a lot of red voters, and I don't think it's the right thing to just write it off. Um so he actually, George W. Bush actually did come to the state. Uh, he did do some uh different campaigning events, but they were all tailored on the eastern side of the state, which is the right thing to do. So, what I learned about that though was it wasn't necessarily about um candidly what they were saying or what they were campaigning on. It was actually about the strategy of running that campaign as a business. And so, how are we gonna talk about what the candidate is saying? Where are they gonna go and why? Um, and it almost became kind of like the the chessboard equation. Um, so I learned more about the strategy than more about the politics, if that makes sense. Um, but I also learned I did not want to go into politics and I did not really enjoy working on political campaigns.

SPEAKER_00 18:08

Well, so okay, I I'm just like really super curious about this. Like when it came down to the strategy, you said it's it's less about the the the topics. You said it's more about uh where they're going. And can you explain more? That would just it's interesting. I'd I'd love to learn more about that.

SPEAKER_01 18:27

Uh it comes down to where they're going to go to fundraise.

SPEAKER_00 18:33

To fundraise. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 18:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:35

So it's really about fundraising versus like swaying voters one way or another, or does just that your presence like sway voters, just like being there?

SPEAKER_01 18:44

Yeah, being there. What what you say when you're there combined with the fundraising side of it, right? Um, and so that was the hey, we we need to get him in this place at this time. He needs to say these two things, and we need to make this fundraising ask.

SPEAKER_00 19:02

So um it's like combining both of those things with each every place you visit.

SPEAKER_01 19:07

Yeah, yeah. So it I I think, like I said, it wasn't the first time, and I'm I and in candor, like it wasn't the it was, it was actually the first time, but it hasn't been the last time in my um in a professional environment where maybe I was a little disillusioned. Um where I genuinely thought it was gonna be about, you know, the issues and the topics and what was what was mattering in the community and mattering to the voters. And it was but a really small slice of it. Right. Um and it and again, like I still learned so very much about and and again, I was probably far too naive in hindsight about all of the different moving pieces associated with that. Um, that of course it was only a slice of that pie. But when you're you know 18 and 20 years old, you really glean into that one little slice. Um now, as a much older human, like you you see the bigger, the bigger um portion of that. Um, but it was the first time really, really head on being disillusioned with something.

Early Career Turns At Microsoft

SPEAKER_00 20:11

Yeah. For sure. And so that was um so you did that for two campaigns, which is really cool. And then at that point, that was shortly after you ended up going to work at Microsoft, right? Was that the next uh yeah?

SPEAKER_01 20:29

Well, so I went from well when I I worked on the campaigns as inter from like from an internship perspective, went to Los Angeles, worked with Warner Brothers for a while. Um, and then when I came back to do my senior year, I wasn't actually planning to stay in Seattle. And like I said, I'm I'm I met my husband. Um and uh he is a business owner, and so I wasn't intending to stay in Seattle. Uh so I was gonna graduate and go off to my next adventure. And uh with him and his uh you know job and career, he wasn't that that was not in the cards for me. So, you know, when you fall in love and uh like okay, well, I'm gonna I'm gonna see where this goes, I ended up pretty I'm really dating myself now. I put my resume on monsters.com. And three days later I had a job at once at Microsoft.

SPEAKER_00 21:24

Nice, nice, yeah. And you said um one of your initial like managers at Microsoft was pretty influential, right? In terms of like your development and and foundation for business.

SPEAKER_01 21:33

Um yeah. So he was at Microsoft?

SPEAKER_00 21:36

That was my soft.

SPEAKER_01 21:38

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh uh yes, he was very influential. I he was my initial manager as a people leader. Um so that was many, that was many years later. Oh, um Yeah, I had I had the opportunity to be at Microsoft for uh about a decade. Um so he became my he became my manager about five years in um and incredibly influential uh to this day. He's still my mentor.

SPEAKER_00 22:04

That's awesome. What are like some of the top things you learned from him?

SPEAKER_01 22:10

Well, um he's a really like humble human, uh good sense of humor, and uh admits when he gets it wrong. Uh and I never let him forget that he got it wrong with me. Um never let him forget. Never let him forget. Never let him forget. I mean, and I I appreciate that we can still like we joke and we've got humor and uh I can tease him and he can tease me. Um we've always been able to joke like that. But uh I remember I had I was coming back from maternity with my second child, and there was a manager job open. And uh the leadership team had asked me if I would interview for it. So I did, and I didn't get the job. And interestingly, when I was interviewing, his name is Chuck. When I was interviewing a Chuck, the uh question he, one of the questions he asked me was, What are three reasons why you shouldn't get this job? I gave my three reasons. And then, you know, a few days later, he no hired me, citing those three reasons, which I thought was like terrible. So I was like, be more original, be more original. So I was like, okay, fine. He was like, I like my job. So I don't, I don't really care. Like I'm coming back from maternity leave. I've got two kids that I'm juggling. Like no worries. Uh three months later I it was a Friday afternoon. I'm sitting um you know and he calls my cell phone and I was like I have to try calling my cell phone and he was like Gabrielle I got it wrong. What? He was like I I should never have no hired you. Uh he's like would you ever consider taking taking this manager job and I remember being silent and quiet and he was like hello Gabrielle are you there? He was like no I'm here I was just thinking I was just processing and he was like well what do you think and my first question is like are you desperate? He was like oh my gosh no and I was like well it's the job's been open for three months like like do you just need somebody to fill the job like is that why you're coming back and saying that he's like no he's like I have literally compared every single candidate to you and he's like and I I can admit when I get it wrong and I got it wrong and I'd really like you to take the job. And I just remember like well I'm gonna take the weekend and think about it. And he was like uh okay so then on Monday morning I walked into his office and I was like okay I'm gonna take it he was like oh my gosh he's like I was like awakened and um it was kind of the beginning of a really good and like almost like teasingly uh open and direct relationship. Um and I was I'm truly grateful that I from day number one could be as honest and straight with him. And it has never changed since then.

From Fixer To Architect Mindset

SPEAKER_00 24:54

I love it. And um I I think this is like you know was this around the time like around like midway through your career at Microsoft you started thinking about transition from the fixer to architect mindset or was that later on?

SPEAKER_01 25:08

I can't remember exactly no that was I would actually yeah no I would say that's kind of throughout right so um Microsoft was a really interesting kind of time in my career. Um so I would say so having been there for you know 10 years I would say literally every 18 months I would get moved into a new job. And you know sometimes it was by choice and sometimes it wasn't. And essentially I would hop into the most disgusting chaotic messy thing um and organize it. And I think I got a little bit of in a in a good way I got a reputation for um for cleaning things and making messy situations hum and and move really easily and then as soon as I did that they would put somebody to do that job and then put me into the next messy situation. And so I think because I got known as that fixer and I was always willing to just hop in and do that it it just it didn't it was like oh yeah sure no problem. So um in that 10 years it felt like I had like six different jobs. I'm really actually very grateful for that. But um I think while I was doing all of that fixing I what I was making the comment was like I was actually learning I was learning construction that now as a where I'm at in my career today, um I I think that I'm actually more in this architecture phase that I actually wouldn't be very good at had I not been in that construction phase in my career. But I do think in 2020 hindsight, you know, I I wish I had had more of an active voice in maybe understanding some of the why. I'm a big why person. I lead a lot with why with my recruiting team, um with my leadership team with my boss um and not and I think that's probably because I didn't always understand the why professionally and that's that's actually really kind of harmful when you don't you can you kind of have some self-doubt when you don't actually understand why you're getting moved or why something is happening. You you think it's like, oh did I do something bad or did I not do something right or um and you take that inside and it took me a little while to actually figure out um and to to finally get to the spot of advocating for myself and asking clarifying questions. And until I started doing that is when I actually was told oh no no you're doing everything right. That's why we're doing this. I'm like oh got it I wish I would have asked this sooner.

SPEAKER_00 27:52

Right.

SPEAKER_01 27:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:54

Well that's pretty cool that you had that like point of impact within Microsoft because it sounds like sort of a a startup point of impact to an extent like just being problem solving and bouncing from one thing to another it's kind of cool to see that that was a essentially kind of a the the parallels working for a smaller company working at Microsoft. I just wouldn't have assumed somebody would be taking on so many different points of impact one after another at a big company. That's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 28:20

Well I doubt I'm I doubt I'm alone I'm sure a lot of people at large you know I think that's a thing um I went from Microsoft to Amazon um and I do I do think that that's it's an interesting thing. Um I do think that there's this misnomer about working in large, large large companies that you know you can get kind of lost in the shuffle. I think if you land on the right team um which is why you should always interview so so specifically um whether it's the department the leader man ask those questions really really carefully um I think if you end up on the right team you have some very cool opportunities even within really large companies um you end up on the wrong team you have a really terrible you potentially have a really terrible experience.

Leading At Axon During Hypergrowth

SPEAKER_00 29:03

Yeah but I guess you could say that like any size company right like just being that's true yeah like critical or thoughtful about like where to make a move right yeah and then like so now you're at um axon and it's uh it's a lot sm I would say a lot smaller right than than a Microsoft or an Amazon. How many employees does Axon have?

Respect Beats Likeability In Leadership

SPEAKER_01 29:24

Uh right now including our well we've just made a couple acquisitions and so we just we just popped up yeah we just popped up north of about 6,000. Oh wow okay cool I I started uh six years ago and we were barely a thousand so pretty substantial amount of growth uh in the six year period of time yeah it's pretty cool so so now you're in like an SVP role overseeing town acquisition and HR people ops right HR ops not bad yeah got it got it okay and um yeah I wanted to talk to you about at this point in your career lots of executive level experience in in town acquisition uh HR ops people ops I I want to get a sense for maybe some of the top takeaways uh and lessons learned that you have um so you one of the concepts that you you slowed down on with me is is talking about being okay with not being liked uh could you explain that a little bit to us and and maybe why you feel like it's so important uh yeah actually I interview people leaders on this I interview like managers on this um it's not it's uh it's it's a little nuanced and and I would welcome your perspective on this James because I'm sure uh everybody has it uh I think naturally people genuinely want to be potentially people pleasers right and when you are in roles of leadership you're making million dollar decisions you're um you know leading teams your manager managers um you have to make the best decision that you possibly can and then stick by it and sometimes those are unpopular decisions you can't worry that everyone on the team is happy with that decision or likes the outcome of that decision and what I really kind of interview on and I met people and I talk with my the people leaders on is you need to care more that the team respects the decision making that you are working through and that you're articulating why you're making that decision because you care that they follow that decision. Whether that they like it or not, if they respect you, they're gonna follow you. It doesn't matter if they like you and there's there's a nuance there and I think if you do your job right you have built trust you've built rapport um you can be likable um but you need to care and invest in in the the leadership the trust and the respect and I and I think that's that's kind of like how I have really vectored in um as I've gotten a little older in my career.

SPEAKER_00 32:02

Yeah yeah for sure. I mean I I think it's it's ultimately to to from a leadership perspective like building trust within an organization if they see if people see you operating in a consistent way over a period of time and uh to some extent that becomes predictable um to so people feel like okay like leadership's in control. We have a a clear path forward of what we're looking to accomplish right like that's those are the things that you know as you mentioned like getting people to follow you I feel like is is most important. They want to feel like there's a plan and there's like a a consistent way predictable way of that leader executing even necessarily if they don't like everything about it, which they won't um it there's still this level of like trust and uh stability and certainty I would say like from a from like a almost like a feeling perspective like if if you can if if there's an environment in which they they feel uh like they they can trust and they have a level of certainty in terms of like the stability of of the organization and and leadership then that ultimately they're probably going to value those things more in their life than you know how much they like necessarily just like as you put it like which feels like more superficial in a sense than you know somebody that you uh trust to kind of guide the direction of your career right yeah you know the interesting thing that you just said there though is um don't overpromise and under deliver too right because again if you if you don't actually execute on what you say you're gonna execute on you're gonna trust bust there it's gone and so I think that you that was kind of embedded a little bit in what you just said and that's not only with your business partners but also with your team.

SPEAKER_01 33:54

You can't almost overcommit either um so you have to be pretty cleary eyed and really intentional. And then man, you better do it. And if you don't do it you're in trouble.

SPEAKER_00 34:04

Right, right. Well I feel like that's that should be the case for everybody like across the board in the organization. Like one of the things like culturally that so I I we do it my companies is really focused on this concept of say do ratio. Like we should have a hundred percent say do ratio if we it's like basic stuff but it's like that is those are the things the behavioral traits that like make a successful team. So if we say we're gonna do it, we're gonna do it right this concept of follow through right and then communication if there's like blockers, okay we'll communicate it proactively but never like don't do something right uh and then we find out after the fact like I feel like that's super important. But yeah, I mean it's it's definitely a balance that it's hard to strike as a leader. It's um one way that I I kind of look at it is or when I think about like leadership and setting standards and expectations that people don't necessarily always love is like I have really really high standards in my business and uh but I also have like there's like a high level of empathy like I genuinely care about people that both have to exist. Like you like one thing that I um actually learned this from like an executive coach pretty early on but uh you know he basically he said you know if you have really high standards without like empathy then you sort of just come across as a as an asshole. If you have high levels of empathy but not high standards, you're just sort of a pushover. You're not a good leader. It's so it's like kind of leading with with both and um I think you know one thing you you can't we can do to like you know particularly lead like when we're not necessarily liked in all regards is like just you know generally do what you can help people. I mean it has to work for the business and people have to earn it and you have to set up a a structure in which people have to you know produce results in order to you know grow in the direction they want to grow in. But um you know like okay you're not gonna like it look I'm still here for you like like let's see I'll see what I can do as a leader.

SPEAKER_01 35:55

Um you know but like the leading with it should never it should never that desire to be liked as you you know put it like people have should never impact the standards uh that that we put in place right so interestingly what you just also said in there uh with regards to uh expectations and empathy I I talk about that a lot with folks on the team of uh being direct but kind of yeah that's that's a good way of of of putting it yeah like there's no there's no reason why people shouldn't know that hey your performance isn't going well right now you can do you don't have to be an asshole when you're delivering that you can be very direct you can have very crisp examples um and you can be really empathetic like is there other things going on in your life right now that might be the reason why behind this like do you want to do you want to have that conversation um I think inviting people to have a conversation versus making assumptions is also really really really business critical that active listening part could not be more important um especially especially at this kind of stage in in career.

Give People Material For Next Interview

SPEAKER_00 36:59

Yeah I think so and I think it's like just I I try to remind myself as a leader that people will hang on every word that I say. And I'm just a human being too so it's like it's okay to not like do things perfectly but I do try to like they may not like something but I'm still gonna set an example of how they should try to be in their career like who they should aspire to be I'm gonna set guidance in terms of like values and behavior and communication that's gonna, you know, you talked a lot about and we'll get more into this like setting people up for success. Because the reality is like when we're in these like positions of influence people will ultimately whether they like it or not they're gonna learn things from us and they're gonna they're gonna take that behavior forward. Even if they you know regardless whether we like it or not. Right. Like it's we're gonna we have that impact and so it's like an actually kind of I think actually goes into it's kind of a nice transition. Sometimes that just works out that way. You know you you you talked about like setting people up for success. And you actually talked a little bit about like their next job interview. And can you kind of explain to us like what this kind of second principle or second top takeaway which you what what how you think about setting people up for success.

SPEAKER_01 38:09

Yeah um I I I think very much um my job as a leader is to make sure that people have content for the next job interview. And so whether I'm doing skip levels, whether I'm in with you know my leaders or people that are my direct reports, um it's it's kind of interrogating like are they having the right opportunities? Am I providing the right opportunities for them to have cool content for their next job interview? Are they working on you know building our next tool launch? Are they getting to help us optimize the process? Are they helping us think about our the next AI tool that we have coming in I I'm not I cannot be the one doing every single thing here. And so if I'm not empowering and enabling the team to have those experiences, I'm failing. And so I asked the team like do you like tell me tell me about tell me about what you're gonna interview on. And if somebody doesn't have a good answer, then I'm failing them. And I I hold myself pretty accountable to that.

SPEAKER_00 39:08

Yeah. I think also like I I don't I think it's at least this is important for me as a leader is to be able to have transparent conversations with people about their future and and getting comfortable around the idea of talking about like okay do we have more alignment on our team moving forward or is like the path you want to go on different than what we can offer. And if it is different then let's let's like you know one motion I actually did was like I I asked um I've asked a couple like historical I've asked people like hey like we'll put together an ideal job description of like what you want your role to be and we can figure out how much of that you can do here. I mean like there's been some cases where like I don't have the ultimate role that somebody wants to move into but it's like I still want that JD. Like give it to me like not what I can do for you at Secure Vision or June like my companies but just give me give me like let me know what your ideal role looks like and okay maybe there's 20% of it we could do. Well maybe there's a class I can pay for you know maybe there's something that we can like do to to help with that um so that we can at least get you going in in that direction. And I I also think that those types of things that there are like truly benefits from a productivity perspective when you're making that investment in people to to try to help them grow.

SPEAKER_01 40:20

You know but do you know what you just did there that it's wonderful and great and I love is that you encourage that human being to take the initiative to think about it for themselves and to come up with a plan. So often people look to other people to make the plan for them or um like hey I I want to keep growing in my career period insert manager talking. And it's like no no I I actually like I I if anyone in my team does that I'm like great what are your ideas how would you like to grow so I love that you do that because it's really it's really important for people to have like what are what do you feel you're good at? What do you what do you want to grow in? Because I don't I don't think that people um think enough sometimes for them for about what they want to invest in and they they wait for other people to tell them oh you should do this project or oh let me let you should go and do that versus I really want to take on building out benefits. I really want to take on building out you know the new you know uh the new project associated with uh you know Zendusk or uh you know our etc.

SPEAKER_00 41:29

So you know it's interesting is like I've really in the past few years I've really changed my perspective on how I think about people's professional development. I feel like when I was younger I would have my ideas around where I think somebody should grow. Like I see this and this type of person. Like and I I will still like I share those things with people if I feel like okay I feel like you'd be really good at this or that. But I I spend a lot more time listening to what they want versus like my vision of who they can become and I I really have stopped trying to convince like I I will share why I think a certain path would make sense for them but I do listen a lot more and I don't try to like convince too much on people taking a certain direction because it's just never really worked out. Like if I've kind of pushed hard to convince somebody to go down a certain path because I see it as like oh you would crush it here like you'd be so good at this or you can do it. Like I believe in you to do this. Like it just doesn't it just hasn't worked out for me. So it's like I you know like what has worked out more is like okay look if you don't love where you're at or you know we don't have this the exact path that you want I'm not gonna convince you to go down this other path but look look what I'm gonna do is I'll help you get to where you need to be at least set you up for success. And it at least and it's like I see more performance like more productivity. I mean just like from a pure business perspective like trying to empower people and just kind of it's got to let people kind of grow in whatever direction they want to ultimately go in. And I think we have to be as leaders also just sort of okay with it. Now ideally we we do need team players that are willing to do whatever it takes like that's different right but um I really have taken a different approach right I I just try to understand as much as I possibly can about how somebody wants to develop and grow and then it's like okay like I have my ideas but we'll just have to see what they you know if they don't go for it they don't go for it. We got to get somebody else for that to for this other job we're looking for right so out of curiosity what made that change for you personally I don't know I mean maybe it was more personal growth. I I mean when I used to do that I was still in my 20s and maybe there was like this level of like I don't think I would have characterized this at the time but maybe there was a little bit of arrogance there where I feel like I sort of had it figured out um but it wasn't just that like I think some of it was genuinely like I think you would crush it here. I think this is an opportunity for you to make more money to do this to do that like you're gonna be successful here. But but again that still is taking the perspective of like I know what's best for somebody else you know what I mean? And I think it's it's just I don't know maybe it's becoming a parent just getting older going through the ups and downs and likes but you can also tell you care about people. Yeah yeah you do there's like there's like it was both right but it's also it's like I cared about people but it's also like you know it's like it's their lives right like you have to support it but like don't act like I can't know for sure. You know what I mean? So it's like it's just a different perspective in purely from a performance perspective. Like again every time I tried to force it a little too much it just it didn't work out as well. Like people weren't like as passionately engaged in what they were doing. They didn't feel comfortable it didn't feel it didn't come naturally to them like so it was like just from the perspective Perspective of, okay, I'm going to put it out there what I think this person can do, but then they need to make the decision on the path that they're going to take. And I'm not going to try to like push too hard on that path for them. So it's I think it's a balancing act. I think we still have to help guide people, but let them ultimately like I try to remind myself, like, okay, they're in the driver's seat. I can't, I'm not going to push too hard because I might be able to convince them to do it, but are they going to do their best work?

SPEAKER_01 45:13

Oh, that's so true. You can always tell when somebody is hating their job based on how they're how they're doing it, right?

SPEAKER_00 45:19

Yeah, and there's just they just lose something. There's this level of engagement and interest that just starts to kind of fade. And then and then you just don't have this team that's like this well-oiled machine that's moving really fast and people are engaged. And that's the, you know, that's what I'm trying to we what we're all trying to build in like these high growth environments, right?

Keeping Teams Cohesive Through Change

SPEAKER_01 45:38

I know. It's and then you know it's tricky, right? The high growth environment change change is happening all of the time. Change is inevitable. Um adapting to that change is really challenging. The team and the team perpetually needing to adapt to that change and still have the camaraderie and that go get him, you know, attitude. I feel like I'm watching that metamorphos on on our own squad right now. And that's a struggle, right? Like how do you how do you continue to navigate ambiguity, rapid change, and feel like you're having an impact, still feel cohesive, run at the speed of light, do all do all the change management, add in all of these tools, um, and you know, and and and feel like feel like your your what your work that your work matters. Um that that's that's a it's a tough space right now.

SPEAKER_00 46:28

Yeah, for sure. For sure. And I can't imagine for your team too, going from like one to five thousand, that's just like insane growth, right? And growth through like organic growth plus acquisition. Like that's a lot of moving pieces to oversee as a leader. So kudos to you. That's uh seems like you got you definitely have your hands full.

SPEAKER_01 46:47

I have the best team. Um, so I while we've we've got a lot of we've we've done a lot of work. I I have the best team.

AI Versus Automation In Recruiting

SPEAKER_00 46:54

Um well look, we we also one of the top takeaways, and this is sort of what you said is almost like your obsession in 2026 as you talked about automation. And you also brought up a really interesting point, which I don't think is discussed enough, so I'm excited to have this conversation. There's a difference between AI and automation. And it seems like those concepts are often conflated and maybe potentially misunderstood. And so could you explain to us what you mean uh by this?

SPEAKER_01 47:27

Yeah. Uh I think in this moment, I think people actually string together AI and automation in the in the exact same phrase, or even sometimes conceptual, um, especially when they're they're thinking about recruiting or systems or tools. Um, and the reality is is you do have to inherently separate them, right? Like the intent of automation is to drive efficiency in your processes, and then AI should be removing that friction and really, really helping, you know, almost the grease and the wheels of that process. The problem is if you're not really vectored in and focused on having really clean processes or as efficient processes, whether that's through automation, whether that's through your human beings, and you slap in AI, you've actually just made a chaotic, messy process that wasn't efficient.

SPEAKER_00 48:23

Actually, chaos at scale.

unknown 48:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:29

Yeah. And so I I really like we we have been using AI in our recruiting, you know, function since 2023. We've been kind of like, you know, into this the space. We've been having having all of these conversations. And I like to think the right conversations. We've made some mistakes. Um, we've we've licked our battle wins, you if you will. Um, I've owned it with my own team of when I've gotten it wrong. Um and it's really important to make sure that you've got the right processes that you're that you're vectored in on and you're not just you know gleaning onto that that shiny, sexy AI tool. And and there's a lot out there. Like there's a lot out there. You just have to kind of like read through what's the right thing for you. Um, but I think there's a lot of pressure on talent acquisition leaders right now to drive AI and automation in their processes. I think there's a lot of pressure on talent acquisition leaders to um use these tools to reduce headcount. Um and I think there's that balance of, hey, make sure when you are looking at those, if it's a tool or if it's a even a process, um, understand your return on investment. Um and so being able to say, hey, what whether it's a people cost, whether it's a dollar cost, whether it's a time cost, what is either the company gonna get for that or what's the negative impact associated with that? Because there is a negative associated impact with launching a tool that that honestly I think we underestimate too.

SPEAKER_00 49:55

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I I think like part of it is the you were we were kind of discussing the resistance to change sometimes when folks are used to running a process a very similar way for a long period of time. We had kind of discussed like maybe why this is uh like particularly for recruiting teams, it's kind of interesting. Like people are talking about kind of resistance that candidates will have and candidate experience, but you know, you were to we were talking about the use case for AI interviewing, and a lot of the feedback from candidates is actually quite positive on a lot of these tools. Uh the resistance uh at first seems to come more from recruiters than it does from candidates, uh, interestingly enough.

SPEAKER_01 50:34

Yeah, we uh we launched an AI interviewer module back in February uh on about 18 jobs, and uh you know, I was sharing our our candidate satisfaction score was about 4.3 out of five. Um, definitely some folks that like, hey, I'd prefer to be chatting with a human being. And you know, you're never ever gonna make everybody happy. Our recruiters, it was a slow adoption, like, oh, I can't put it on, I can't put it on this role, I can't put it on that role. In Candor, like we've just got a lot of really critical roles open right now. And so my job is also to find and create capacity and the resources I have. And so I went through all of our open roles and really did a deep dive analysis of uh our HRIS job codes. I'm like, well, these are the 31 job codes that we're gonna turn on the AI interviewer for and team. Sorry, but there's not, there's we're not gonna have a choice here. Like, we gotta go, I gotta find hours, and this is how we're gonna do it. Um, and so I kind of remove that that friction and the choice. Um, obviously with a little bit of data along the way of like, hey, here's here's here's kind of like what the candidates are telling us. Here's why we're doing this. Um, and here's the hours that we're gonna give back to you guys so that we can go and help our business continue to grow. Please do this with me, not not against me. So I think if you can lead your teams with again a little bit of that data, explain that why. Um, it makes it a little less scary. I think recruiters inherently think you're replacing my job. Um, and if you help explain, like, no, I'm I'm replacing the 10 screens that you're going to do on repeat for a security guard over and over and over. When maybe that security guard worked until 10 p.m. last night and they want to like do their recorded interview at 11 p.m. because they're like wired and they're ready to go, and not wake up at 8 a.m. and like talk to you. Um, so I don't know, you kind of have to sometimes also meet the candidate where they're at. And um, I think we just need to continue to adopt.

SPEAKER_00 52:29

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I've I've had a pretty overwhelming like positive uh feedback from um from candidates. Like so one of the companies I run, I was telling you is called June, and there's several product tiers. There's um we have uh sourcing database, essentially like fully evaluated talent for primarily tech companies. Uh but the the tier, the first tier is the AI interviewer. And um we actually we took a business strategy of offering tier one as like the free tier. So we have it, we're able to roll it out to a lot of companies very, very quickly and collect a lot of data very, very quickly. And our ultimate product plays a lot more holistic beyond the the AI interviewer. But again, it's like pretty consistently across the board for like GTM for technical roles and like everything in between. Like, even like, you know, like a lot of people kind of I think sort of assumed like, okay, this is uh only gonna be for sort of like specific types of roles, right? But like the reality is like across the board we're getting like pretty high engagement rates, pretty high feedback rating uh from candidates. Uh and I think it's like uh once the recruiters feel like, oh wait, this is actually awesome because now I just have this like really awesome short list versus going through like because some of the the the customers like they might have they're getting like a thousand plus inbounds like for one job, and candidates are so used to not being able to engage at all or like they're not getting any type of feedback. Right. So I think candidates are just a lot of them are just actually kind of grateful to be able to get into the process a lot faster and know that their information is actually going to be viewed because it's gonna be part of like potentially a short list if they know they're qualified versus just being one out of a thousand people. Because I I feel like it's like would be really frustrating to like know you're qualified for a job, but just know also like nobody might somebody may not even just see my application. Like I know I'm qualified for this, but they're not they may not even see it, right?

SPEAKER_01 54:27

Um You know, I um I have a lot of empathy for just the market and and candidates. Like you hear all the time, like it's a black box, right? Like I submit my application and I put my resume in and then it's a black box. I have no idea what happens, right? I hear that a lot. I mean, obviously, like we interview for a living. Um, and so it is really fascinating when I'm interviewing candidates. Like there's a lot of gratitude, like, hey, thanks, you know, thank you for like interviewing me today. Like I've you know, when people are actively looking for jobs, it's it's it's sometimes a very stressful time in their career. Um, so it's it's not just empathy, obviously, with your team, it's also empathy for that candidate experience.

SPEAKER_03 55:04

Um, for sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:05

There's there's a lot, there's a lot tied up in a human being, whether they're changing a job, they're a passive candidate or they're looking for a job. Like uh as a recruiter, like we have a we have a really unique role um with the human and and helping navigate like the right kind of personal and even sometimes like family decision for them. Um it's a fun, fun opportunity.

Building Employee Experience As An Architect

SPEAKER_00 55:30

It is for sure. I think it's like the thing we have to remind ourselves as a recruiter, particularly for fast-paced companies, uh, particularly within tech. It's like it's an insanely competitive industry, arguably the most competitive industry in the world. Um, you gotta be on it, you gotta be very metrics and systems driven. You have to be so consistent with your output. You can't skip a beat or take your eye off the ball for a second. That's how it feels, right? Um but it's like remembering we're in a people business and truly like somebody their career is like the most it's one of the most like vulnerable, kind of scary things, decisions to be making. And yes, it is a big decision for a company. But the reality is like it's a it's a that's more risk. It's more like at the end of the day, like it's risky for us to hire the wrong people. It can be a seven, eight figure mistake. But like at the same time, it's riskier for the person making the move. Yeah, like and we just have to try to like remember it's hard, it's really hard like to to to do all of those things, right? Like to maintain the candidate experience piece. Um, but it's it's also it's just so critically important. It's like tech feels like a big industry, but it's also like a small industry at the same time. Like, you know, it will get back around, you know, like people's experiences and that type of thing. That's true. Yeah. Um well look, I I also wanted to talk to you about really about like your future, right? And talking about like professionally, holistically as a person. One common theme of this conversation is you talk a lot about like being an architect. Um and so I'm I'm curious, like when you think about your future and growing professionally, like tell us more about that and like what you know, more about like what being an architect really means to you and and how you want to continue to develop in that direction You know, I uh it's fun, right?

SPEAKER_01 57:22

Because I don't ever think the job is done, ever. Um, and I know that that sounds like it may sound like I'm not satisfied. Um, so it's not that I don't want to celebrate wins and things like that, but I always look back and think that well, we could have done it better, we could have iterated on that. So I'm always tinkering, I'm always like breaking processes down and and thinking on how you can build it better, how you can do it better, uh, how you can up it, how you how you what's it gonna look like the next time? Um so I obviously do that professionally and do that personally as well. So I think for me in the, you know, this next phase of my career, I have an incredible leader right now who trusts and empowers me to do that not just in talent acquisition, but in other facets of HR. Um and so she's enabled me to kind of get my arms around the employee experience. Um, and we're we're tinkering. Um, how are we doing better? I talk about with the team, like what do we eat next? And so uh when I think about architecting, I think the sky's the limit. Um I think it's not being afraid to make mistakes. Um, and so for me, when I personally think about, you know, that where do I go from here? Sky's the limit, right? Uh I think I I I tease my boss that I don't want her job. Um, she's our uh fearless leader, she's our CHRO, but I wouldn't mind having her seat, you know, at a smaller size company somewhere else at another moment in time to continue to build, you know, the holistic employee experience. I think that's a cool thing to think about. Um my husband and I have side hustles on the side. We've got a property management company, we're uh always kind of like looking to invest in real estate and short-term rentals. And it's it's fun to kind of you know have your brain exercise your brain in very different ways. Um, he's a wealth manager, and so his big thing is how are we going to replace our current income when we no longer are working so that we can stop working, you know, and and be able to have an awesome lifestyle and continue to have a lot of fun with our kids in our later lives. And so uh I've learned a lot from him on how to plan for the future. So uh yeah, I mean the next chat, the next kind of like chapter for me is is um iteration, continuing to be really open-minded and paying attention to the continuing changes in the talent landscape. Um technology is changing this space so rapidly, you cannot take your eye off of that right now. And so I'm I'm very, very focused on that because I think it's changing recruiting in HR just right in front of my eyes. And if I'm not paying attention to that, I'm gonna be a dinosaur. So um that's I'm literally paying attention to the next six months, if I'm honest, James.

Authenticity And Speaking Up Respectfully

SPEAKER_00 1:00:17

Yeah, for sure. And I I know what you said, like you also had mentioned like one of the top takeaways you have at this point in your life, and um, I'm assuming it's gonna like be really important to you moving forward is like continuing to be your authentic self. Uh yeah. You the quote continue be your authentic self because no one will do it for you. Is there any like advice you could give people out there on that? Like how how does that what does that really look like? And um, you know, just why it's so important.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:47

Um only you have your voice. No one, no one else is gonna have your perspective. No one else is gonna have lived your life, no one else is gonna have your opinion. And if we do our, especially in in career settings, if we do our jobs right, we have formed teams with perspectives and opinions that can respectfully share them and push back on one another. That's when you, especially in tech, when you're making products, like everything status quo, you want to be able to have dialogue and be able to have discourse. Being your authentic self means sometimes you have a differing opinion and you just land it respectfully with the other party. Um, that doesn't mean that you get your way all the time. Sometimes, again, you like, you know, disagree and commit. But I never want to be like the, yep, I'm just gonna go along with it and not not say my opinion in a room where everyone's nodding their head. If I really feel that um I have something to share, I'm gonna share it. And I think the advice that I would give to people is like, it doesn't have to, you don't have to be that loud person in the room that's always objecting to things. Like kind of pick and choose your battles, if you will. Um, but at the same time, like if you feel really passionate about something and um I don't know, don't be that sheep. Don't be that person that just nods your head. Um, I just I really, I really have valued how I've curated my my personal voice over the years. And I don't think I'm I'm not the loudest in the room. I don't come in banging on doors. Um, I really try to kind of seek to understand other people's perspectives before I share my own. And honestly, that's grown my perspective because I do it in that way. But being true to yourself could not be more important because literally, if you if you don't share kind of like a little bit of that sense of who you are and it comes full circle to leadership, people aren't gonna follow a fake person. They're gonna follow, you know, that that person that they feel is being genuine and authentic. And if you're trying to emulate someone else, you're trying to pretend to be another leader, you're trying to, okay, well, my boss is acting this way, so I'm gonna act this way, you're gonna have you're gonna have less trust. And so that's what that's also kind of like tied in there of why I try really hard just to be myself.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:57

Yeah, it's a it's a trust thing. And maybe some leaders can't handle that. I can't handle getting like the direct communication from their team, but those aren't necessarily the people you ultimately want to be around in your career if you can help it. Um, I think like the the trust aspect of being able to speak up and speak your opinion, whether somebody agrees or not, it's like okay, they know they can rely on you to be an objective like uh person that's that's going to to bring up alternatives or uh risks or or whatever else, right? Um so I think it's just it's important in terms of like it's really, really important in terms of peers on the executive team, and it's also really important for like employees and folks that report up into us, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:43

Like I authenticity.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:47

Yeah, absolutely.

Final Reflections And Farewell

SPEAKER_00 1:03:49

Yeah, yeah. Well, that's really good advice. Well, Gabrielle, this has been a really fun conversation. I've really enjoyed talking with you today. Thank you for for coming on the show and and sharing all your uh your story and and your advice with everyone. It's been a really uh fun episode. I'm glad we could do this.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:06

Well, thanks for having me. I look forward to uh seeing the next couple episodes. You're doing you're doing a uh really cool thing having some really great speakers. So it's it's been fun to follow you.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:15

Well, thank you. Thank you.